Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread

In My Humble Opinion
1582

If we invoke neighborhood watch then we should examine what neighborhood watch procedures are.
We should also note that Z was on his way to the Super Target to get groceries after dinner. I have heard this means he was not taking a watch at the moment.

If we go with him acting as NHW, we should hold him accountable to NHW guidelines which require him to observe from safety, iirc.
He received a reminder that it was not necessary that he, as either NHW or not, move himself to where he could further observe M.

If we’re not going to hold him to NHW guidelines, then we shouldn’t assume he was acting in his capacity as NHW.

imho

Or he hid. Or he went around the building in the NW quarter clockwise and saw that Z wasn’t in his truck and then continued the circle. Or he went around the building in the NE quarter counter clockwise and then ran into Z on his way back to his place. Or some other thing.
There’re too many other reasonable scenarios that haven’t been ruled out yet, imho. I don’t see that we would necessarily draw that conclusion out of the hat of possible conclusions.

That is very different from how I remember it.
There’s a new bit of audio out now where we can hear the girl’s own words instead of mere paraphrasing of before. But I forget where it is exactly.
But I think the paraphrasing didn’t support it either.
I found this which has some of the more recently released stuff in it.

It really doesn’t come across at all like she’s saying Martin initiated contact.
imho

[INDENT]"In the taped interview with a state prosecutor, the girl said that Mr. Martin, after evading Mr. Zimmerman for a while, noticed that he was being pursued again and mentioned this to her.

A sense of urgency grew. Mr. Martin alerted the girl to the fact that Mr. Zimmerman “was getting close to him.” She strongly urged him to run, but she could tell he did not because he was out of breath and tired, and kept saying he was close to the town house where he was a guest.

The girl, who talked with Mr. Martin several times that evening, told the investigator that she then heard Mr. Martin ask, “Why are you following me for?” She heard the other man ask, “What are you doing around here?” Earlier, Mr. Martin had temporarily sought cover from the rain by one of the buildings.

After calling out “Trayvon” several times over the phone, and getting no response, she heard somebody bump Mr. Martin.

Subsequently she heard him utter what sounded like, “Get off, get off.” Then the call ended."[/INDENT]

And if the other points are not necessarily so, then this isn’t likely to be iron clad either.

1583

So? His neighborhood had a series of burglaries and he called the police in the hopes they would capture one of the culprits.

Again, so? From a legal standpoint he had every right to keep watch on the neighborhood.

It stated it right in the article you linked to. Martin initiated the conversation.

If Zimmerman was looking for a confrontation he wouldn’t have called the police. Logically, he was trying to keep Martin in sight so he could direct the police when they got there.

No, it’s not Zimmerman’s problem he can’t fight. There shouldn’t have been a fight in the first place.

1584

how is that remotely relevant in a court of law?

1585

This is interesting.

[QUOTE= Witness 6]
“When I looked down, I saw the person that was on top was laying in my grass in a sprawled position,” witness said. “Saw another guy with his hands in the air, saying, ‘The gun’s on the ground, I shot this guy in self-defense.’”
[/QUOTE]

WTF? Why would Zimmerman utter the words “I shot the guy in self-defense” before the police arrive on the scene? It tells me that Zimmerman was immediately thinking of his culpability. His should’ve instructed the individual to call an ambulance and at least tried to save the boy’s life (e.g. CPR, first-aid). It’s one thing to disable your opponent, it’s another thing entirely to let them bleed out into the street.

1586

Z did choose to convey that M was putting his hand in his waist band for some reason. Can’t say for sure that Z was considering the possibility that M was armed. That is where Z had his weapon when the police found him, iirc. At the bond hearing Z said that he did not know that M was unarmed? Or didn’t know if M was armed? Or something to that effect.
So Z has at least thought about the possibility that M was armed at some point.
The first point that Z considered when M was armed could’ve been when Z decided to report that M had M’s hand in M’s waistband–the same place where Z wore his weapon.
But that’s not exactly the same as assuming that M was armed.
That only establishes that Z thought about it at some point–not what his choice of belief was.

If Z did consider it when he was suspecting M, perhaps Z made decision or an assumption. I think that of the two choices–armed or unarmed, one assumption certainly seems clearly safer than than other. Not that Z would necessarily view the choice the same as me. Some of us here may think see the choice the same as me.

But maybe not. Z could have been oblivious to the possibility that M was armed. It may have been mere happenstance that Z chose to talk about M hand and M’s waistband.

I can’t give any numbers or other data about how likely it is that while Z was suspecting M of being a bad guy up to no good, Z also considered the possibility of M being armed the same as Z was.

You can’t really invoke the NHW to justify behavior which is apparently proscribed as a matter of by NHWs around the country. (Sorry if I’m wrong about how widely it’s proscribed)
Iirc, NHW are supposed to observe from a safe location.

Under the circumstances as I assume them to be
the guy ran after realizing that Z was watching him
a belief that the guy might be armed
a belief that the guy is “up to no good”

At that point not all places are alike to Zim. Some directions are more potentially dangerous than others. Not all of them are as likely to be occupied by someone you believe could be an armed bad guy up to no good.

Z chooses to increase his danger despite the guideline that NHW stay safe.

So I don’t think it’s right to try to hitch Z’s decision to NHW.
It’s not really a NHW sort of thing to do.
imho

1587

The other witnesses saw Zimmerman leaning down and checking something (I presumably signs of life) on Martin. So by the time he said that (again, if he said that, other witnesses who supposedly saw exactly the same scene never mentioned it) he knew Martin was dead.

1588

How sure can we be that “straddle” best describes the relationship between M’s body and the sidewalk.
Imho, straddle implies that M was some how astride the sidewalk akin to or as if he were straddling a horse. For example, a foot on each side of the sidewalk.

http://www.trbimg.com/img-4fb581ca/turbine/os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-sh-046/600

http://www.trbimg.com/img-4fb581d0/turbine/os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-sh-044/600

1589

Perhaps Zimmerman was covering his ass in a different way. He was found standing over someone he’d just shot to death – perhaps he didn’t want the witness to think, “Hey, this guy’s a potential threat and I’m afraid for my life. I should shoot him before he shoots me too.”

1590

You do realize that’s a bagged body after it was moved, CPR was performed, etc. etc.

1591

fight took place in the vicinity of sidewalk. body found in vicinity of sidewalk.

1592

Despite teh assertion of that source, when I examine teh FD report, it doesn’t say if those are drugs that Z was on atm or ones he takes regularly.

1593

Initiating a conversation is, of course, not the same thing as initiating a confrontation. It makes very little sense for someone to approach someone and then ask why the person they’re approaching is following them. It makes infinitely more sense that GZ initiated the confrontation, and TM initiated the conversation upon being confronted.

It’s not stated explicitly, but I interpret the fact that GZ put his gun on the ground and his hands in the air to mean that it was the police he was talking to at that point when the witness observed and overheard him.

1594

We’re not in a court of law.

Someone brought NHW as the reason why Z did something or other.
But what Z did wasn’t really in accord with NHW procedures afaict
So using NHW to justify the action doesn’t seem appropriate.

I am guessing that using NHW in the example that I replied to probably sin’t courtroom ready either.

I still have a whole law degree and bar exam to go before I am court room ready.

1595

What I find interesting is the report that Z puts the gun down, Cutcher and her roomie repeat this iirc.
But the police report says that the gun was in a holster in Z’s waistband iirc.

1596

My bad.
It looked like a sheet, not a bag to me.

http://www.trbimg.com/img-4fb57f02/turbine/os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-sh-015/600

How much moving of the body was necessary after they rolled him over?

1597

The source of the "feet on the sidewalk and body laid out perpendicular from it comes from Tracy Martin’s version of what the PD told him.

1598

Yeah the report says that Z told Officer Smith that he was still armed and Smith says that the weapon was “located on the inside of Zimmerman’s waistband”

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/327370/trayvon-martin-police-report.pdf

1599

It’s a real question. And I’m a bit surprised you are comfortable with a pilot who would be considered legally intoxicated in some jurisdictions.

Anyway, you seem to have missed my other question:

What is the THC cutoff for DUI in Florida?

1600

Witness 6…is that the mysterious “John Doe” person?

Because something is really weird here. Martin was found on his stomach, hands underneath him, when the police arrived. This is in the police report, iirc. Witness 6 says he saw Martin “sprawled out”. But other witnesses said they saw Zimmerman with a knee on Martin’s back, as if holding him until the police arrived. So which is it? Was Martin sprawled out or not?

Witness 6 is now saying he can’t be sure about what exactly he saw…admitting what I suspected all along. It was just too damn dark out there. Martin’s body position is not trivial. It establishes the plausibility of the head-bashing.

1601

Why? We have the pictures of the lacerations on the back of GZ’s head.