You’ll be staying here, I presume. 
I don’t know that the defense can plausibly assert that Martin initiated the encounter.
It seems to me that significant doubt is cast on Zimmerman’s account of events by the fact that Martin was engaged in a phone call with a girl via bluetooth headset, right up until the moment the confrontation got physical. This is hard to reconcile with the picture of a young thug chasing down a guy for looking at him the wrong way - it just isn’t very plausible.
You have a witness who will say that the call was cut off when the headset hit the ground, (corroborated by phone records and 911 logs) and her account of what she heard suggests Zimmerman followed Martin to the point of confrontation, with Martin wanting to avoid him. I have a hard time crediting a scenario where Martin is the aggressor and yet his phone call is somehow terminated by the headset hitting the ground.
Given what we know about Zimmerman’s state of mind and past behaviour, I think the most likely explanation for what happened is that Zimmerman tried to compel Martin to stay on the spot until the police arrived, and the situation quickly got away from him.
Of course, it doesn’t seem like there is going to be a witness who comes forward to say they saw this happen, and there’s not going to be a CSI moment when his hand print is revealed perfectly on the arm of Martin’s hoodie.
Martin had earplugs. not a headset. When the investigators checked the cellphone, the battery was dead (?). so they recharged it, but didn’t know the password.
No, but I assume you are.
I read the medical examiner’s report and it appears to me that they screwed up in not doing a subcutaneous examination of the knuckles of Martin’s hands. Since Martin died within a couple of minutes after he encountered Zimmerman there wasn’t enough time for visible bruising to appear on his knuckles. Since the State didn’t check for capillary damage, then the State can’t rebut Zimmerman’s claim that Martin was beating him.
I’m not sure if this is the M.E’s fault for not checking or the Sanford P.D. for not telling them that Zimmerman claimed that Martin had beaten him. I’m kind of leaning toward the P.D… Based on what the N.Y. Times reported, Sanford doesn’t actually have a dedicated homicide detective in their department. Homicides are assigned to someone from the major case squad.
More dueling audio experts:
A little more interesting than the last time.
As we’ve heard, GZ has a soft, you could say, almost feminine voice, and we have no idea what TM sounds like. Most 17 year olds have their adult voices. How can they possibly tell who’s in his twenties, and who’s in their teens.
I did say dueling.
It’s borderline retarded to say something like this even after he’s been charged with murder. If it was all so easy to conclude what you have as an armchair spectator, then there wouldn’t be need for a trial. Especially since only a portion of the State’s evidence has been released.
Have you seen the text messages that Corey has? For all you know, Zimmerman could have admitted to restraining the kid. Maybe he bragged about showing him who’s boss by showing him his weapon. Maybe he admitted to threatening the kid prior to the struggle. Any of that would have given Martin the right to stand his ground.
Oh but you say, authoritatively, as if you were right there watching the whole scene unfold, that Zimmerman did nothing that warranted a fight. Good thing we have you around to tell us what’s what.
Agreed.
What the defense can, and will, argue, is that who initiated the enounter means nothing, and they will be legally correct.
The kind of encounter between two people thatnthey’ll say Z started are perfectly legal.
Zimmerman is in his late20’s. Martin in all likelihood was still growing into his 158 lbs body. In terms of age, they are leagues apart.
I’ve noticed that when men yell or scream, they tend not to have the same screeching quality to their voices the way that teenaged boys do. Also, they don’t whine as much. When upset, mens’ voices hold a steady tone and tend not to break monosyllables sounds into multiple ones. But an upset teen, (male or female) is more likely to make their voice climb up the scale and turn “mom” into “MAHHH-ahhm” and “stop” into “STAHHH-ahp”.
I don’t have kids, nor am I surrounded by them everyday, and yet when I am exposed to teenagers (when I do mentoring for instance) their speech patterns jump out at me. They do not sound like adults in younger people’s bodies.
We don’t even know that Martin beat him up. The only witness who originally said he saw Martin throwing MMA-style punches is now saying he isn’t sure what he saw because it was so dark. We have evidence that Zimmerman was punched in the face, but this could have been the result of a wild punch thrown by a panicked individual being restrained. The linear scratches on Zimmerman’s head could have been sustained by falling on the edge of the concrete at just the right angle. The grass was wet and slippery. Zimmerman could have fallen while trying to restrain Martin, who could have ended up on top of him simply by accident.
There’s still a whole lot in this case that we do not know. The only thing we know for 100% certain is that Martin was killed by Zimmerman. This does not automatically implicate Zimmerman as the wrong doer. But it does mean we should not accept everything he has said as fact, since he has every reason in the world to lie and exaggerate. I’m more than fine with saying that we probably will never know what happened that night. As tragic as Martin’s death is, I’d rather everyone agree that there is a lot of mystery here than start pinning absolutes to things that cannot possibly be known with any certainty.
Alan Dershowitz continues to believe that the charges are poorly supported by the evidence.
It is a much better article than the one the Orlando Sentinel produced. It is kind of interesting that Reich can actually find words in the screaming when most audio experts seem to disagree about what Zimmerman was saying on the 911 calls, which have far better audio quality.
That may be, but afaict, that’s Zimmerman’s story.
If I am correct that this is Z’s story, then Z has no “reason” to initiate the encounter because he did not initiate it.
Outside of Z’s story, what relevance does attaching a “reason” to Z’s actions have?
That’s what I don’t get. What does it matter if we impute reasons for Z when Z says he has none?
No matter how good of a reason we come up with, if that reason is not actually in Z’s story, what does it matter? He won’t be tried w/ what could have been his version of events, he’ll be tried w/ what IS his version of events.
Imho, it’s not about whether or not you “know that the defense can plausibly assert that Martin initiated the encounter,” or even if the defense can plausibly assert that Martin initiated the encounter, but rather about what Z actually said happened.
His opinion’d be more relevant if he had the same access to data as the prosecutor, imho.
I mean, I have trouble seeing how murder2 is supported too. Although Dershowitz’s opinion on this has more weight than mine, I don’t think he is fully informed about what all the evidence is–with certain exceptions, none of us are .
The expert in the WaPo article points out something I mentioned weeks ago (that got poohed-poohed as Junior CSIing).
The yell on that tape is not consistent with someone getting punched or throttled against the sidewalk. The voice doesnt fade in and out in the way one would expect it would, if it was Zimmerman’s and he was being beaten.
So even if we credit the voice to him, he still is going to need to reconcile this with his story. Can that sound come out of someone who
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has a person sitting on their chest
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is being suffocated
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has a broken nose
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has their head being banged on the ground, with their neck in flexion?
Something has to give. Either the voice is Martin’s (which is by far the simplest explanation and the explanation backed up by 3 diffent experts now), or it’s Zimmerman’s. But if its Zimmerman’s, that makes his story look too incredible to be believed.
So I can see why Corey thinks this audio hurts Zimmerman’s case badly.
I have a question for the lawyers.
Witness 6’s account (I’m assuming this is “John Doe”) seems to have been given a lot of weight by those siding with Zimmerman’s supposed account of things. I have pointed out one thing that he says happened that does not appear to be corroborated by other witnesses and police findings (that Martin’s body was “sprawled out” right after the shooting). He is now expressing self-doubt about what he saw that night.
Will he still be called to testify? If not, then how much damage does this do to Zimmerman’s case?
Zimmerman didn’t just have two lacerations on the back of his head. He had some serious abrasions back there.
Indeed. That’s why it’s particularly interesting when what Zimmerman has said happened appears to be contradicted by other facts in evidence.