Mary Magdalene

in the straight dope classic column of 9/18/1998, a rather simple view of MM is argued, contradicting the dogmatically accepted view. But what about the view presented (supported?) by the Nag Hammadi texts, in which Mary is presented as an equal or more important disciple/apostle than most if not all. This may have been one of the Aryan points heavily argued and eventually denied by the Nicaea Conference of 300 AD (or so, I can’t remember). Read anything you can about Nag Hammadi (Sinai, 1950’s, discovery of buried texts in the desert, similar to discovery of Dead Sea Scrolls), or read Elaine Pagels discussion of the texts, The Gnostic Gospels.

Anyone have anything to add?

Link to Cecil’s column: Were Jesus and Mary Magdalene lovers?

Welcome to the Straight Dope Message Board, Green… nice to have you here.

It helps others if you post a link to the column that you’re commenting on, helps keep us all on the same page.

Also, since this is Cecil’s column rather than a Staff Report, I have moved to the appropriate forum.

[Edited by C K Dexter Haven on 06-04-2001 at 01:32 PM]

Arian. It’s spelled Arian. Aryan is completely different. Boy, you had me confused for a second there.

Anyway, gl, welcome to the board. By the way, which gl are you?

Also, Cecil didn’t mention that the medieval Merovingian dynasty traced their lineage to the son of Jesus & Mary Magdalene. Probably horse-feathers, but there it is.

The Merovingian line is supposed to be the great secret of the Knights Templar and the Illuminati, among others. The marriage feast where water was turned to wine is supposed to have been the marriage of Jesus to Mary Magdalene.

Beyond this, there is a “Gospel of Mary Magdalene” in Berlin, where Mary describes her marriage to Jesus, her travels with the Apostles, meetings with their wives, etc. According to this Gospel, Jesus spent the 40 days between the Resurrection and the final Ascension instructing Mary Magdalene, the Apostles, and their Wives on the future of the Church and establishing its organization.

Iraneous also says in “Against Heresies” that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married, that Jesus owned a house in Jerusalem where Mary his mother lived, that Jesus was not poor as asserted by later writers, etc.

The Bible is also conspicuously absent in any criticism of Jesus as being either unmarried or childless, which the Jews of the day certainly would have held against him.

Naw, but I would like to pat Cecil on the back for the following:

That’s my boy. Pith and vinegar. :slight_smile:

Let’s start with some helpful definitions. “Magdalene” is not a name, it’s a title or nickname (technically called an apellation.) Let’s just call her Mary. Let’s also remember that Jesus’s apellation is “the Nazarite” not “of Nazareth.” A Nazarite is one type of extremely orthodox Jew. No haircuts, strict observance of dietary laws, etc. Yeah, yeah, I know, the Bible says Jesus broke a lot of the rules. But remember, you gotta know the rules before you can break 'em.
One rule of classical Judaism was to take God’s commandment to be fruitful and multiply to heart. Celibacy and sexual abstinence were considered gross sexual deviations on par with bestiality and homosexuality. Unmarried men were specifically barred from becoming Rabbis.
So what? you ask. Well, of all the rules the nitpicky Pharisees accused Jesus of breaking, no one accused him of being a thin, single, neat freak, if you follow my meaning. Monk types, like Essene ascetics, were rumoured to be secret homosexuals, precisely because they remained celibate. And Jesus is referred to as Rabbi, especially in John.
Let’s follow the scholars in taking John as the most accurately written gospel. Not only does John not say Jesus was unmarried, but John sure portrays Jesus as a married man. And none of the gospels hint that celibacy was one of the requirements of those wishing to emulate the life of Jesus. That was Paul’s idea, and he never claimed it was Jesus’s idea.
First example: the wedding in Canaa. Jesus’s mother is there, and according to Jewish custom, he would not take her to someone else’s wedding. We know it was a traditional Jewish wedding because it was “on the third day,” that is, the third day of the week, the traditional day for Jewish weddings.
Further, Jesus’s mother treats Jesus as though he were the official host of the wedding party. For example, she expects Jesus to supply more wine. This is specifically the tradional duty of the groom and his parents. Secondly, when he works a “miracle” to produce more wine, the only response from the crowd is displeasure that this “best wine” was not served sooner, again according to Jewish wedding custom.
Conclusion: Anyone familiar with classical Jewish customs (the intended audience for the gospels) would sure assume that Jesus was the groom, and therefore married.
But, to whom? Later, Jesus approaches the house of Lazarus, and learns Lazarus has died, and the women of the house are sitting shiva, or mourning. Jesus summons Mary, Lazarus’s sister. According to Jewish custom, a woman may leave shiva only when summoned by her husband. Again, readers of the gospel would naturally assume that Mary was Jesus’s wife, and Lazarus his brother-in-law.
Is this the same Mary who annoints Jesus’s feet? That Mary, annointing his feet, is re-enacting the annointing of a Hebrew King by his wife, so that Mary is definitely playing the role of king’s wife to Jesus’s King. The identification of this Mary as a “sinner” has nothinbg whatever to do with a particular sin, like prostitution. Such mundane matters would never be discussed in such and important forum. Rather, she is identified as being outside the closed society of Nazarite or Essenic orthodox Jews to which Jesus belonged. (One tricky problem in Biblical scholarship is that sectarian Jewish movements don’t give themselves names like Essene. They are named by other people. Curiously, none of the Gospels name the Essenes as being a major movement like the Saduccees and Pharisees. A possible clue that the gospel folks were Essenes.)
Jesus is crucified and buried on private property. This indicates a close connection to a very wealthy and influential family, private tombs being extremely rare in Jesus’s time, and the compliance of the Romans with a request for private execution raises some pretty bushy eyebrows. Something’s going on here.
A year before his execution, Jesus visits Jerusalem, and is a welcome guest of the High Priest. Contrast this with his next Passover visit, when the High Priest and his party lust after Jesus’s blood. What changed?
The Gospel of John is different. For one thing, it’s often referred to as the the gospel OF John, not the gospel (of Jesus) according to John. For one thing, Lazarus appears as the first person to raise from the dead, before Jesus does it. Wouldn’t this make Lazarus the Christ? And if Jesus gets special treatment because he’s the brother-in-law of Lazarus, who is Lazarus? And how did Jesus and his family make such a powerful enemy so fast?
One clue: there was a power vacuum in Jerusalem for almost a year before the arrival of Pontius Pilate, the new gorvernor of a more strictly controlled Judea. We know the house of Caiaphas was deposed and replacd by one Johnathan Eleazar. And, a year before he died, Jesus is portrayed as having purged the Temple of unworthy types. There are many clues that Jesus died a year during the first year of Pilate’s tenure. The first thing Pilate did on arrival was put Joseph Caiaphas right back in the temple. Presumably, the party of Lazarus (as good a bet as any to be the biblical name of J Eleazar) would now be enemies of the state. And Jesus is executed for crimes against the state, regardless of any other anti-Jesus propoganda. Remember, it was not the Romans who were the puppets here.
If John/Lazarus is Johnathan Eleazar, what’s the connection to Jesus? Brother-in-law is a pretty safe bet, I’d say. I doubt if a revolutionary High Priest is going to pick some random long-haired miracle monger out of the bushes of Galilee and make him co-regent. It would be somebody close to him.
So, having backed the wrong side, Jesus is hunted down and executed the following year. And who is sitting shiva by his tomb? None other than Mary. If she’s not a member of his family, like his mother, what is she doing there? And lots of early christians considered Mary to be the first pope, not Peter or Paul. Why would they think that, if they didn’t assume she was his wife?
Conclusion: the friendly folks who wrote the gospels sure seem to want us to jump to the conclusion that jaesus was married, and presumably to Mary, the sister of Lazarus. I say let’s take them up on it.

Some flaws here: First, you’re assuming that Jesus took Mary (his mother) to the wedding. Why not suppose that it was a friend or relative of Mary who was getting married, and she brought Jesus? If Jesus were indeed the big shot at the wedding, then the servant would have asked him first. Instead, he asks Mary, who directs him to Jesus. Mary, in turn, is presumed to have asked Jesus not because he’s the host, but because he’s the Messiah. According to some of the apocryphal writings, Jesus performed a great many miracles as a child, so Mary would have come to expect him to be able to fix up awkward situations. The reason that the crowd didn’t comment on Jesus producing the wine is that they didn’t know he produced it: The Gospel makes that pretty clear.

Jesus is called “Nazarene” because he was believed to be from Nazarus. Again, this is made pretty explicit in the Gospels. We don’t have any record of folks berating his unmarried status, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they didn’t, it just means that the gospel writers didn’t think it important enough to mention.

Jesus was buried on private property at the request of a wealthy and influential man. There’s no reason to assume that Joseph of Arimathea was in some way related to Jesus; he had a great many followers (enough to found a new religion), and it’s perfectly plausible to suppose that Joseph was one of them. He was not crucified on private property, but on the same Hill of the Skull as any other crucifiction. Remember, there was a common thief on his right and on his left.

Yes, the reccomendation of celibacy was from Paul, not Jesus, but do you really think that Paul would have recommended celibacy if Jesus were not celibate? Surely, Paul would have known for certain, without all the second-guessing we need two millenia after the fact. As for the rest (summoning Mary from shiva, etc.), even if that was the custom, well, Jesus (and his followers) broke with many customs.

Mary Magdalene & Jesus
I have to stand with DuckDuckGoose on this.
A load of crap.

I’ve been hearing this rumour for a while and i’m finally, and for once, impressed with someones argument of it.

I think it was all a simple case of some jerk-off trying to lower the biblical credential that Jesus had never been married or engaged in sex, And on another level, attempting to weaken the faith that alot of people have, in the life he was actually stated to have had.

I honestly don’t think any human alive can give 100% solid evidence that the skeptic needs, to believe his argument may be wrong - If it’s such a question in one’s mind, why not try asking Jesus yourself for the answer (You know, those things called prayer, discernment & conviction) It actually works.

Sorry - I just happen to love Jesus. Not too many people are fond of people raising sexual indescretion rumours about their Mothers, and to some people - this is the same type of thing.

Pith & Vinegar Goose. :smiley:


I have fixed the link. – Dex

[Edited by C K Dexter Haven on 06-05-2001 at 05:06 PM]

Hey DrTom827. Even if people question some of it, that’s a pretty impressive first post, welcome aboard.

Sounds like more shaky 2nd guessing to me. Hand waving and saying that “surely Paul wouldn’t be celibate if Jesus wasn’t” doesn’t seem to be a solid argument.

I did a quick search and found this.

and this

As a non-practicing Zen Buddhist I don’t have a dog in this race, but I find the arguments interesting.

I agree. I’m one of the ones who’s unconvinced by much of the post, DrTom, but it was still quite a good initial post. Welcome to the SDMB!
RR

Jesus really was a Nazarite, as DrTom said (the other one I can think of was Samson). But he wasn’t called Jesus the Nazarite, he was Jesus the Nazarene. Jesus who comes from Nazareth. Two different things.

The wedding was not Jesus’s. His mother was present as a guest, as stated before, and she called him there when the ‘crisis’ (running out of wine) took place.

The groom is indicated separately, drawing a distinction between him and Jesus.

[bolding mine]

Also, although I’ve never seen anything in the bible stating explicitly that Jesus was unmarried and celibate, the reason I believe he was is the description of the wedding feast (of Jesus) in Revelation:

Since he was already betrothed (to the church) for a future date, he wouldn’t have been married on earth.

That’s reaching for a post-event explanation, isn’t it? My reading of the Scriptures shows that Jesus was “of Nazareth.” Nowhere does it say, “Jesus, you know the dude who was a member of the Nazarenes” or “Jesus, you know the dude who ain’t allowed to imbibe, etc.”

Here’s what Merriam-Webster says about “Nazarite”:

Right: two different things - one which he wasn’t (or at least the Scriptures are silent on the issue) and the other which is “Jesus, of that town Nazareth.”

Well, since the Scriptures didn’t say it was Jesus’s wedding and they didn’t say it wasn’t, there’s the same amount of proof for either: zero.

I take it you’re making an incredible leap of logic here and equating “grooom” with “diciple.” No proof of that. It very well could’ve meant that one of Jesus’s disciples was asked to be a guest.

Heck, there’s nothing in the Bible to support or deny any of your assertions before these, why quibble now?

And as to “he wouldn’t have been married on earth”: Not necessarily. They’re not mutually exclusive.

“Well, since the Scriptures didn’t say it was Jesus’s wedding and they didn’t say it wasn’t, there’s the same amount of proof for either: zero.” (My underscore, indicating I think that’s a pretty huge word to be bandying about in the world of Biblical criticism. See below…)

Quoting the most previous post, that of Monty, I’d like to take that comment, and use it to get back to what started this thread, namely…

In looking critically at the New Testament, in the light of relatively recent discoveries and analyses, such as the texts from Nag Hammadi (look at the initial post for cites, or search the Web), texts of equal or greater age than the accepted canon, which may contradict the accepted canon, to what extent can you accept the writings in the canon for an accurate and comprehensive historical account. How much was pure dogma, set in stone by the church fathers in 323 or thereabouts with no regard for the initial context, intentions or writings? Keep in mind that there is evidence that prior to the Council that settled the questions of Canon at that time, there were something like 150 writings being discussed as candidates.

My original post asked what people thought about the likelihood that Mary Magdalene was not just a minor character, but a major one, a key character who wrote her own Gospel (which was ignored or called heresy following the era of the misogynistic Augustine of Hippo, and the Councils of Nicaea).

Is anyone up on this, I’m just trying to learn more about a period in history that interests me.

Thanks

GL

A) As a matter of cold fact, the four gospels existed in pretty much their current form no later than the early 2nd century.

B) There was also very little dispute over the canon of the New Testament; one clearly heretical group complained about everything by John, and one or two additional books, such as I Clement and The Shepherd of Hermas came close to getting in, but for the most part none of the other alleged books were any more likely to be accepted by the Church at large of the time than, say, the Pope is likely to accept the Book of Mormon today.

C) The above quotation to the effect that the notion that Jesus was celebate is “supposition” was clearly written by someone on drugs. The gospels say what they say.

I haven’t denied that the gospels were written at that time, I was aware of that fact. What I’m trying to initiate a dialogue on is that the Council that decided church canon discussed and cast aside other gospels and writings that were equally as old, if not older. The church fathers at that time made a decision to censor the canon heavily.

The gospels were written considerably later than the events they describe. Isn’t it curious that other writings written closer to the facts, possibly directly after the facts, and possibly by the actual participants (as has been put forward by scholars working on these texts), were ignored and cast aside?

I also make note that the opposition to the censoring of the “heretical” texts was small, it is true (2 bishops out of 100-or-so), but the two who disagreed were killed for believing differently. One of them, Arius, lent his name to all sorts of heresies propagated through the Middle Ages (Arianism).

It was this sort of inflexibility and need for absolute control that probably led to the Protestant movements 1100 years later.

I really don’t have time to go into this in detail. My wife is calling me for dinner.

Essentially, you’ve evidently been reading books published by the University of Outer Woowooland. Nearly everything you have in your post is either an outright falsehood or just plain nonsense.

There was never any council such as you describe; the canon of the NT was at least 95% fixed by the middle of the 2nd century, and there is no evidence that there was any major disagreement before then. The “alternative” books were always the property of tiny sects.

Arius was responsible for one very particular and well defined heresy that had nothing to do with the canon.

The Arian dissidents at the Council of Nicea were excommunicated.

Arianism (which most nearly resembled the Christological doctrines of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, among modern sects) died out long before the middle ages.

It is nonsensical to blame the existence of dogma, per se, for the Reformation. Protestants have dogma, too.

Actually, I’ve never taken any non-prescribed drugs in my life. I agree that the Gospels say what they say; however, I also recognize that they do not say that which they do not say.

So they’re special books that weren’t written by human beings and cannot be read as though they were? Balderdash! If Jesus had been married, especially if he had been married to someone mentioned by the evangelists, the gospels would say so. (Especially by John, who has an eye for trivia and a habit of filling in details left out by the synoptics.) The gospels are books written by ordinary men with an extraordinary story to tell, written for people who wanted to learn all there was to know about their Subject; they’re not logic puzzles or exercises in the art of equivocation.

It is nonsensical to blame the existence of dogma, per se, for the Reformation. Protestants have dogma, too.

I’ve never seen any branch of philosophy, science, or religion which did not struggle with dogmatism. Even atheists tend towards it.

I’ve never taken any non-prescribed drugs in my life.

I did, just a few weeks ago. Just nausea medication that my wife had. I suppose I’m a criminal now. but it was worth it.
I agree that the Gospels say what they say; however, I also recognize that they do not say that which they do not say.

Jolly good. I wish more people did. But then, I myself keep discovering new stuff in them all the time.

To return to the thrust of green lantern’s initial post:
*But what about the view presented (supported?) by the Nag Hammadi texts, in which Mary is presented as an equal or more important disciple/apostle than most if not all. *
As I stated earlier, I don’t buy Mary as being a more important disciple than most of the others. Nor do I believe that Jesus was married to or a lover of hers, which was what was originally asked about. (How’s that for confusing syntax?) I do think, though, that the Gospels indicate that Jesus and Mary had a very special and tender relationship. I also think it creditable of the apostles not to try to edit the sequence of events after the resurrection to make themselves look better: the women were the ones who were on their way to do their duty; they were the ones who first heard of the resurrection; the apostles didn’t believe them at first.

Lotsa cool lessons here.
RR