Care to address any of the real points?
FREEDOM2, give me an e-mail address and I’ll tell you how easy it is to completely remove the serial numbers so that no amount of effort can get them back. It’s done with a tool most men have at home.
Are you suggesting that all speech is “slander and libel”? I can assure you that the vast minority of it is.
What about the group of protestors outside the DNC in Los Angeles? They were forbidden to gather even before a hint of violence started.
All right, how’s this? Baptists that protest abortion, Mormons that protest homosexuality, Protestants that protest… well, everything (a joke, a joke!). The point is, you’ll always be able to find an extreme example of any given issue.
Damn straight it is. But it’s also illegal for the cops to go look if they don’t have any reason to.
You’re wrong. There’re quite a bit.
Neither are the streets of the United States. You’re speaking from Ignorance, my friend.
For every example of a society like England’s, there’s an example of a society like Russia or China or Turkey. So, in the U.S., there’s a 50-50 chance of fascism should a gun ban come to pass.
Them’s shitty odds, my friend.
mangeorge…
Is it really honest to call gun owners “nuts” and “lunatics” just because they realize what a “right” is?
Is it really honest to draw a comparison between “guns” and “nuclear weapons”?
Is it really honest to imply that all gun owners want to go shoot people?
Is it really honest to say that guns only kill, and can never, ever, ever, EVER, be used for defense?
Well, first of all- criminals rarely buy their gus from a store. So- the shell casing law, which is any case COULD only help ID semi-auto pistols- would have little use. Next- shell casings are not that exact- so that if every pistol had a casing- they really could not figure out which gun fired that casing. Now- if they had a “suspect gun”- yes indeed- they could say that the brass came from that gun with a 99% probability. BUT- there are something like 10 million guns- if a casing was found- 99% only cuts it down to a hundred thousand. True- they could eliminate other calibers & such- but asuming 9mm- the most popular- still there would be a thousand guns. Next- those casing samples are only good until the gun has been fired a lot- or a new firing pin has been put in. In other words- altho a crime or two MIGHt be solved by this- millions of dollars will be spent, and the rights of millions trampled- to make no significant dent in the crime rate.
And that is the point. Availablity of guns does not significantly effect the violent crime rate. So- every single freaken gun control law will not significantly decrease crime. In NYC- there is the toughest gun control laws in the free world- has been for years. In Geneva or Zurich (Switzerland) there are also tough “gun control” laws; every able-bodied citizen is given a fully automatic assualt rifle- and they MUST keep it at home or their business. Now- where would you be safer in the central park at Midnite?
Crime is affected by the ECONOMY (“stupid”) and not by gun control laws. Personally- I really don’t care about a few gun-control laws. I am not an NRA member or anything like that. BUT- they waste taxpayer dollars, and a few law abiding citizens are arrested for no other reason- which I feel is bad. One more time; no matter how severe- gun control laws have no significant effect on crime rates. So- why have them?
could we have a discussion about firearms that doesn’t descend into both sides taking extreme positions, causing in a subsequent break down in discussion? Started off on an interesting OP, and then straight down hill into:
Anti-Gunner: Only a criminal would worry about registration, forensic databases, etc!
Pro-Gunner: Any change in status quo whatsoever is first step in banning guns!
I mean, this is dumb. You’ve got two legitimate sets of interests here - people who have a legitimate right to keep a gun, and people who have a legitimate right to not being shot. Surely to god we could try to find a common ground that works for both? Maybe, just maybe, something that would really only affect people who’d like to use guns for bad intent?
Oh, on an aside - Freedom2
That has to be the funniest oxymoron I’ve seen in months.
Spoofster, nobody has implied that all speech is slander (not libel), the point was that the freedom of speech can be constrained by the state without compromising the substance of the constitution. Not all change is a bad thing. As for people in England not having any more handguns; well, I’m in England, right now, and I can tell you that’s the way it is. Sure there may be some floating around in the (neccessarily) criminal element, but they certainly aren’t in general circulation in any meaningful sense of the phrase. If you have a cite that says different I’d be happy to take that into account. The streets aren’t overrun with gun-toting madmen eager to rob me, and I wasn’t implying that they were in the US either, but often gun ownership is associated with self defence, and rightly so, but lack of handguns doesn’t have to affect your safety, so no, I’m talking out of ingnorance. However, while we’re on the subject, your example of the gun controll laws in Russia (about which I know nothing) are ironic as they overthrew their regime without the use of guns. I’m not aware that Turkey has particularly restrictive gun laws, nor are they living in a facist state. As for your third example, China, lets not forget that the totalitarian state was introduced through the will of the people. They have probably changed their minds in the mean time, but there was no creeping legisltation there, there was no slippery slope. And, um, they’re not facists either.
Gary has a very good point, not every issue touching on guns has to bring the hippies out of one corner to tell us about how guns are evil and everybody who wants one is a Neanderthal, neither does it have to bring the foaming-at-the-mouth- backwoodsmen out of hiding who will only give up their guns when you pry them out of their cold dead fingers. The fact of the matter is that way too many people get shot, injured and killed with handguns, and what are we going to do about it?
Freedom2, we’re still waiting for that cite. Take your time.
sorry, I couldn’t resist that, it won’t happen again.
This is an absurd position. The vast majority of guns and gun owners are never involved in a serious crime. Legitimate gun owners already abide by this compromise. But that doesn’t seem to be good enough for the gun control crowd. They demonstrate that over and over by attempting to pass and enforce legislation that has no effect on crime. I can prove this. The United States currently has over 22,000 laws on the books restricting the use and ownership of firearms. And we still have gun crime. By your judgement, too much. Ergo, the gun laws that have been passed and enforced do not work. And these won’t either. I’ve shown above (in a calm and reasonable fashion, I might add) why these cannot work.
Why don’t you reply to that instead of addressing the side bars. Show me where I’m wrong. Debate the damned issue. You’re gonna need something strong, because the anti-gunners are gettin’ their asses kicked right now. The blend of ingnorance and emotion you guys are arguing from ain’t workin’.
Tangentially, the last two posters, Moonshine and Gary Kumquat have made statements to the effect that there is too much vituperation and reactionary emotion on both sides of this issue in this thread. I don’t believe that is true. I only see it coming from the gun control folks. In fact, I challenge both of them to find a statement, in this thread, from a gun proponent similar to these, from apparent gun control advocates.
From AVSC916:
and from capacitor:
Come on. Take the Pepsi challenge. And when you finish that, bring a real reason for supporting these laws to the table.
How about the possibility that there are just too many guns too easily available in the streets today? I own a pretty little .38 myself along with a well made little .25 semiauto, both bought from a gun store, both registered with the police. I haven’t shot anyone or gone and waved a gun in anyone’s face but every time I read the news, someone is being arrested for a gun crime.
Not all guns which fall into criminal hands have been stolen. They caught a character a few years ago who liked to drive into Florida, visit gun shows and buy up a bunch of hand guns and bags of ammunition, then happily cruise back up to New York and sell them off to folks who were willing to pay lots of cash for unregistered handguns.
I’ve been to gun shows in some places where the seller doesn’t even ask for ID, doesn’t have you fill out any form and just gives you a bill of sale to get you through the exit. The availability of those cheap little Jennings makes them real popular and while wandering among the stalls, there are extended military style clips for semiautomatic military style rifles to give one a lot more fire power, papers for sale on how to make many semiautomatics into full auto and kits to do the same.
There is even a device that snaps into the trigger assembly of a .22 rifle that turns it into basically a machine gun and for those that find the 18 shots in tube or clip too few, they have versions with extended drums or curved clips holding 50 rounds or more.
It is the availability of this large amount of lethal material that has me concerned. Cops have raided gang houses and found piles of guns, including modified Tech-9s. You can buy a Tech-9 at any gun show, as a semiautomatic hand gun with around a 10 round clip. The buyer will happily direct you to another table, if you express interest, where you may buy extended clips for the gun and inexpensive bulk ammunition. That guy, for a fee, will sell you instructions on how to make the gun automatic and direct you to another table where you may buy the parts needed to do so.
You can walk out of that place, right under the watchful eyes of the police, with a gun you can turn into a machine gun, complete with extra long clips and toting bags of 1000 brand new .9 mm rounds. Imagine what some nefarious folks would pay for that thing, modified.
I’d like harder gun laws. Right now I can go into any pawn shop, buy up several hand guns, maybe wait a few days to be cleared, take them and sell them to whoever I want without coming under the laws requiring the buyer to be checked for a criminal record, and make a tidy profit.
And I’ve known hunters to be kicked off of hunting reserves for showing up with high powered military style guns and for using that special ammo you can buy out of a catalog, like explosive tips, Teflon coated armor piercing rounds and high powered sabot shells. The idea of hunting is to give the animal a chance, not machine gun it down with rounds that can cut a small pine tree in half. Many hunting reserves around here put restrictions on the types of weaponry and ammunition hunters can use.
Some hunters I know would just love to go bag a deer or moose in a Humvee topped by a 50 caliber machine gun.
I have problems with that.
One hell of an anti-gunner me. That’d explain why I spent a couple of hours last night stripping and servicing my Franchi. Never mind.
Right you are, UB. May I then give you first, the pro-gunners:
(and still my favourite)
Then, from the anti-gunners, we have:
Yeah, there’s no "vituperation and reactionary emotion ", as you put it, going on at all.
You know something, UB, whatever you feel about the anti-gun lobby there’s an awful lot of people who subscribe to it. Ever wonder if you wouldn’t do more for your cause if you tried to win people over, rather than just issue statements such as "The blend of ingnorance and emotion you guys are arguing from ain’t workin’. "
Oh, and for the record - the Maryland legislation is non sensical, riddled with obvious weaknesses and generally a bit daft.
I’ll second that one:
Freedom2
‘I think I’m gonna hurl…
I can’t believe the crap posted in this thread already.’
‘You obviously have no grasp of the facts…’
‘You are such a moron’
‘Put your feet on the ground, take your head of the clouds and take a long hard look at the crap you are spewing. You stopped making sense a long time ago.’
Still waiting for that cite Freedom2.
This is exactly the problem: People argue on emotion and rhetoric, not facts.
Congratulations! In my life I’ve owned a Ruger 10/22, a Raven .25, a Browning .380, a Beretta 9mm, a Haskell .45, a Firestar .45, a Glock 21 (.45 cal), two Ruger Mini-14’s, a Remington 870 (12-ga), and a Winchester Defender (12-ga).
Some bought from gun stores, some bought privately, and ZERO registered with the police. Some of them have been very finely crafted weapons, and some have been cheap and cheaply made. And I have also never shot anyone, nor do I run around waving my guns in people’s faces. I have, however, drawn (but didn’t fire) a weapon (the Firestar) once in a situation that I feel saved my life.
Oddly enough, I didn’t find any of my guns “in the streets” which you gun control people seem to think is the best place to find guns. You sound like those stories about immigrants in the 1930s coming to the US for the first time. After hearing that the streets in America were paved with gold, they expected to be able to just walk out to the road and pick up a gold brick to pay rent.
But anyway, What’s your point?
Sounds like we both have the same complaint: The media. They disproportionately report gun crime because it sells papers and gets people to watch tv. If Joe Random shoots his 19 year old crack dealer in assfuck montana, it will likely be front page news in New York, Chicago, Miami (well, maybe not. they have enough violence of their own to report), L.A., Etc, where they will lament the shooting of a poor child. But where are the dramatic teary-eyed reports of the thousands of stabbings that happen all the time? Why don’t we have Connie Chung and Barbara Walters doing hour-long specials on the “poor children, the CHILDREN!!!” who are beaten to death with rocks or sticks? By the way, have you ever seen a beating, stabbing, or shooting? The latter is much LESS brutal than the former two.
Sad, isn’t it? Not the fact that people in NY want unregistered guns, but the fact that you have to sneak around in the dark, and find “back-alley gun dealers” (to borrow a piece of rhetoric from the abortioneers) in order not to be robbed of your fucking constitutional rights!
ahem I’m sorry for that outburst.
Anyway, the Constitution (and by extension, the United States) recognizes the existence of certain rights that are inalienable, and come part and parcel with being Human. Among these rights is the right to be armed. This was important enough that it was protected specifically and explicitly in the Bill of Rights.
Let me paraphrase, since the actual words seem to confuse so many people:
Analogy: Let’s replace guns with something else:
Now, does that imply that only electors have the right to publish and read books? Nope. It means that ALL people have the right to publish and read books, BECAUSE the electors are drawn from the people at large.
By the way, check into the 14th Amendment, as well. That says that the States can’t limit freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution. That means that State bans, registration, etc, should be overturned.
For more info, look here:
What does "Well-Regulated mean?
A 2nd Amendment Analogue (The above analogy was borrowed from here)
Well, if they are licensed dealers, then they are already in violation of the law. Do you really think passing more laws will stop that? On the other hand, are you sure they are actually licensed dealers? If they are private individuals who have guns to sell, then they are not required to fill out ANY sort of paperwork. A bill of sale is standard, though not required. No different from having a guy come to my house to buy one of my guns. Except that the gun show is easier and more fun.
So what? There’s nothing wrong with having more or bigger magazines and more bullets. I have a whole lot of bullets. And a lot of high capacity magazines, too. Does that make me a killer?
You’re saying, then, that not only do you want to violate the 2nd Amendment, but the 1st, as well? You don’t get to suppress knowledge. Freedom of speech and of the press, remember? That means you have the right to publish and read whatever you choose. Actually doing the conversion is what’s illegal.
Again, check your facts. Those are legal Federally, and in most states.
A Tec-9 (check your spelling) is nothing more than a pistol. That’s all. ANY gun can be converted to full-auto. The Tec-9 is demonized by the gun control establishment only because it “Looks scary” and has a threaded barrel. There is nothing about it that makes it any more formidable than any other pistol. Except that it jams an awful lot. It would be pointless to have one made full-auto, because you’ll still be firing it single-action when every other round gets stuck halfway out of the chamber.
Again, so what? There’s nothing either dangerous or illegal about any of this.
Now, are you relating an actual incident? Have you ever even been to a gun show? This sounds an awful lot like one of those worst-case stories that people make up to try and scare others into supporting new laws.
By the way, you might find it interesting to know that even being in possession of parts for converting a semi-auto weapon to full-auto (unless you hold a class 3 Federal Firearms License) is a felony. What more regulation do you want for that…make it an “extra-double-secret felony”?
Yes, just imagine. Seems like your imagination is plenty healthy. You can’t buy that kind of stuff at gun shows. I know for a fact, because I’ve been to maybe 30 or 40 of them. In reality, by the way. Mine aren’t made up.
What’s this?? A gun control advocate ADMITTING that background checks don’t prevent crime, or even keep guns out of the hands of criminals? HALLELUIAH!!!
From the level of gun knowledge I’ve observed from you, I have serious doubts that you even KNOW a hunter, let alone have known any to be kicked off of hunting land. I know many hunters, and they are all very serious about hunting. Meaning they don’t use hand grenades to hunt deer, and wouldn’t even if they were allowed to. The fact that you would even say such a thing only strengthens my idea that you’re making this all up.
You know not of what you speak. Coating a bullet with teflon does not make it pierce armor. The armor-piercing rounds you mention are steel, which makes them lighter and harder than lead. THAT is why they pierce armor. They are coated with teflon to lubricate them and keep them from destroying the bore of your rifle. They have been banned, and the ban was passed with the full cooperation of the NRA.
http://www.youdebate.com/DEBATES/armor_piercing.HTM
Teflon “Cop-Killer” Bullets
Uh, what color is the sky on your planet? The idea of hunting is to kill the animal.
ALL hunting reserves put restrictions on what weapons and ammunition hunters can use. So do ALL State laws. And any bullet that can kill a deer with one shot will go through a small pine tree like it wasn’t even there.
I already stated that I don’t think you know any hunters, and you have so far demonstrated ZERO knowledge of guns and hunting, except for what you can read on HCI’s website or hear on 60 minutes. Anyway, if you do know people like that, they are the problem. Not their guns.
I couldn’t have said it better myself.
While proofreading my post, I found out that, unfortunately, I exaggerated a bit.
I’ve only been to about 25 gun shows. Not 30 or 40.
My apologies.
But Gary…where that quote was taken from, in the context it was used, was correct. The person so asserting did not have a grasp of the facts. I have not called him “stupid”, altho I have been using the term “ignorant”, which I feel to be properly applied to one who is uneducated about the basic facts of firearms operation and laws. I don’t really think that I have been flying off the handle here.
See Joe, if you weren’t such a gun show newbie, you would know that you can buy plutonium, RPG, Stinger missles and F16Es as well. I mean, you may have to buy each part at a seperate table, but you can walk out of a gun show with everything you need to make a M1A2 and wave to the cops as you do it! Don’t you see this is wrong?
Gary? I invite you to examine this post. I’m so certain that will agree with me, that you will post your own synopsis as well:
Equating the your personal experience with what you read in your particular newspaper with there being “too many guns” is not a valid argument.
Not stolen, but still of illegal origin. It is already against the law for this to occur. Every Fed, Sheriff, City Cop, State Trooper, and ATF agent knows it is against the law. So…why is it still occuring? Why do you think it will stop or even be reduced significantly if additional laws making it more illegal are passed? And it’s not just a State-to-State problem either. “Reportedly”, large numbers of automatic weapons come across the border from Mexico (where they are even more illegal than here), having been shipped in all the way from China and the Phillipines. Will this stop or be reduced with further laws?
While this is most likely illegal from a licensed dealer (and thus, what will more laws necessarily do?), federal dealers are allowed to sell their own guns “off the books” in America. Unsavory sounding, I agree, but legal.
Three questions:
-
What does the “availability” and “popularity” of a legal firearm have to do with this argument? (Jennings)
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It is perfectly legal for me to own and purchase “extended” clips for my “military style” rifles if made before the passage of the 1994 Semi Auto Ban (not it’s real name, I know). What is your point?
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I’ve got some bad news for you, sunshine. Being an engineer, not only do I not need instructions on how to convert a semi-auto to fully-auto, I know enough to make the damn gun myself from scratch, given a Monarch lathe, Bridgeport CNC mill, and a small shop of tools. What exactly are you implying by even bringing this up? Knowledge banning?
You see, your persistant lack of specifics and strange over-generalizations have totally convinced me that you are not in fact a gun owner at all, but are continuing with the aformentioned “False Persuasive” argument. But then, I have no proof of either. It’s just a feeling I have.
They also find .22’s, 9mm’s, AR-15’s, crack, pot, switchblades, and bombs. Here again is another over-generalization “…cops have raided gang houses and found piles of guns…” This is becoming shopworn.
Mine (TEC-DC9, not “Tech”, BTW) came with a 30-round clip, new in box.
Both 100% legal. In fact, I did not have to go to another table, as you put it, but bought it all at one place. Once again, we have this very bizzare lack of knowledge peeking through here. False Persuasiveness, IMO.
In that case, the buyer is being ripped off. For one, it is painfully obvious how to convert a TEC (well, at least my DC9 model) from semi to fully automatic, and second, one can go out and download these instructions for free off of the Net, or browse USENET groups until they find someone who will post about it. This is the second time you seem appalled at “knowledge”. Are you leading towards proposing that there are “thought crimes” related to gun owndership as well? I’m not saying that you are, but it appears that you are heading this way.
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Never saw police at any gun shows here. But then again, my city has an amazingly low crime rate (and very few gun laws at all, as I’ve previously posted).
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Once again, those “.9 (sic) mm” rounds and “extra long clips” are 100% legal. Your point is not clear.
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Yes, and if I modified it and they bought it, we would both be Federal criminals. ALready against the law.
I had no doubt.
If you transfer them knowingly to a felon, or to be used in the commission of a crime, or to a drug user, etc., etc. at least in my State you would be a criminal.
Wait…hold on here…this is really too much. You throw out “explosive tips”, “Teflon coated armor-piercing rounds”, and “machine guns” all in the same vague, odd reference about hunting reserves once again. They had machine guns and explosive ammunition, but were not arrested? Only kicked off? I’m sorry, your posts are just not believeable, IMO. Either you are making the whole thing up, or you live in Kabul.
Not “many” in the US…ALL do so. You see, here in the US, States have regulations that are very specific on hunting seasons, types of guns that can be used, number of animals that can be taken, method of hunting, and number of rounds in the gun (which is why many shotgunners must carry a plug).
Another vague, over-generalized reference.
Well, truth be told, I always wanted someone to make a really cool “Dino Safari” PC game, where you went hunting for dinosaurs using a Humvee and machine gun. And it could be a multiplayer game too - teams of people with belt-fed miniguns sneaking up on a T-Rex…and it could have cool explosions too…and grenades, and laser tripmines, and jetpacks…ohhhh yes…and then in harder levels, you fight against cybernetically-enhanced dinosaurs…imagine it. You are in the jungle, crounched and terrified, when suddenly the laser beam from the Borg-style laser implant of the Allosaurus sweeps across your arm, and you hear his integral spine-mounted rocket launcher warm up, as you signal for the air strike…drool…
But -that is in The World of Make-Believe, which unfortunately seems to be somewhat close to where your examples given in your post come from as well.
As ever, I tend to agree with pretty much everything you said.
Slight hijack…
Are you happy with the weapon’s performance? HAVE you had feed-ramp or other types of jamming trouble? Or have I just been exposed to a couple of lemons?
Yeah, I know. My bad. I’ve only been shooting for 26 years (since I was 4). Is my inexperince that obvious? Damn, damn, damn!
The weapon is a pile of crap IMO, and I am sorry I bought it. Actually, I bought 2 of them during the 1994 “rush”. I sold the used one to a co-worker, and still have a NIB one with 3 magazines. But like I said, it seems to be non-stop jam, jam, jam. In fact, if I’m ever chased by an armed rape gang, my best hope is that they are all armed with fully-auto TEC-DC9s. So I can be fairly confident that they will get less than 5 or 6 shots off between them before I get to my car and my stainless factory folding stock Mini-14 Ranch Rifle with 30 round clip locked securely in the trunk…
Thanks. I was curious, and that’s exactly in line with everything I’ve heard about them.
Nice choice with the Mini-14 Ranch, though. The one I currently own is my 2nd one. But STAINLESS?? Blecch! :eek:
SPOOFE Bo Diddly counters my question with;
No.
So, my question was;
Peace,
mangeorge