It can make them less dangerous. I’d rather be around a not-nice person who’s afraid of death, than one who thinks he goes to heaven if he dies doing God’s Will. And religion is very amenable to “I’m doing this awful thing for your own good” excuses.
This is absolutely true. I did not realise the manner that you intended this. Please accept my apology.
Agnostic here. Like madmonk28, I believe in enlightened self-interest. If everyone in the world acted kinder towards their peers, we’d all benefit in the end. Having to think before I act and having to keep in mind my community’s long-term well-being (which ultimately means my long-term well-being) might mean that I’ll never become Supreme Overlord of Four out of Five Known Multiverses, and I’ll never have my own harem and slave pool, and I have to put up with the occasional asshole-ish behavior and not simply kill those who I don’t like, but it also means that I’ll be able to (hopefully) enjoy relative peace and the fruits of human cooperation.
I’d rather live in a world where I could go out in the streets without having to fend for my life at every street corner, where I could ask a stranger for help if I needed it, where I might even be able to make friends and form communities, etc…
Selfishness doesn’t have to be destructive if people realize that what they want often coincides with what the community wants, and when it doesn’t, a sacrifice may be worthwhile if the benefits of community outweigh the benefits of going it solo. It doesn’t take a whole lot to make a person healthy and happy. In other words, instead of constantly fighting others to get 100% of what I want and perhaps losing 100% if someone decides to off me, I can opt for 90% gratification in exchange for a constant 10% sacrifice to the community and live a longer, safer, saner, and only slightly-less-than-perfect life.
And that’s just a straightforward cost-benefit analysis that doesn’t even factor in the touchy-feely stuff. Once you bring in the actual emotions related to compassion, it gets that much easier to live this way, religious teachings or not. I think of the entire human race – and animals too, at times – as one giant extended family, and really, a stranger is just a half-hour’s conversation away from being an acquaintance, and another few hours away from being a friend. And I like my friends and am not terribly inclined to hurt them.
Combine the two and the Golden Rule just makes sense. I couldn’t give less of a crap about karma and God’s eternal recompense or any sort of whacky bullshit like that. I do what I do because it’s what I want others to do; the system would break if just one person fails to uphold their part of the bargain, so we all have to do our part.
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But that’s the thing. It’s a terribly fragile system, which is where law and enforcement come into play. It’s easy to want a fair system when we’re at the bottom of it, but give a man enough power and suddenly all his former “family members” seem more like like pawns waiting to be played.
At a more basic level, it seems to me that we’re not much different from pack animals in that there’s a constant struggle between the parts of us that care about one another and the parts that secretly want to become alpha. It’s an interesting – and perhaps unfortunate – dynamic, but I don’t think it has to be as lethal/unfeeling as we humans sometimes make it out to be. So while “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” may be naive and unrealistic in our flawed world, “do for yourself while keeping in mind what others could potentially contribute to your life and don’t be afraid to help them out once in a while” seems somewhat more reasonable.
…as long as the balance of power isn’t disturbed TOO much. The whole thing breaks down when the happy passive allow aggressive tyrants to rise in power too much.
Bingo. And **Der Trihs **is right that I should have written “physicalist” instead.
Enemies shorten your life expectancy, and reduce your quality of life.
Friends lenghthen your life expectancy, and increase your quality of life.
It is in your interest to make friends, and avoid making enemies.
Therefore, it is in your interest to think about, and even act on, the needs and wants of others.
In other words, “empathy” and “compassion”.
Contrary to the unabomber’s fantasies, humans are not solitary creatures. If you are dropped into the wilderness alone and naked, your chances of survival are pretty grim.
On the other hand, if you are surrounded by other humans, your chances of survival increase dramatically. In a group, our life expectancy is much longer. Specialization of labor enables us to live much more comfortably than we could if we had to do everything ourselves. Therefore, it is in one’s interest to consider the needs and wants of the group.
Risking one’s life for a stranger is justified by comparing short-term cost with long-term benefit. You incur a risk today in the hope that it will improve the odds for your descendants.
It increases the amount of goodness in the universe. Goodness, as defined by me, based on my observations of myself and those I interact with and learn about. And that’s a good thing.
I neither subscribe to physicalism nor materialism (which is rather more specific, denying anything that isn’t matter). But I am agnostic. (Do people also think naturalism involves taking your kit off?)
I do not believe it is incumbent upon myself to feel compassion. As MEBuckner has pointed out, it is not really a choice. I feel compassion for strangers because it is somehow hard-wired into my being. Be it genetic, or cultivated environmentally (through myparents most likely, who taught me to be compassionate).
Seriously, how many atheists aren’t materialists? Sure, a lot of atheists deny being materialists, but the denial seems awfully weak. If someone says that he’s not Catholic but always speaks glowingly of Catholics and the Catholic hurch and always defends Catholic theology, it’s hard not to believe that he has some kind of strong connection with the Church. Similarly, when someone says he’s not a materialist but always seems to argue from materialist premises, it’s hard to believe him when he says he’s not a materialist.
You can call me a literalist if you like. I believe the Bible was meant to be taken literally… and of course no thinking person would believe in such nonsense if they were told it was all literally true.
Compassion for strangers is equal parts altruism and selfishness.
First of all, we don’t choose to feel compassion, we simply do, the same as any emotion.
Secondly, no, as an atheist I don’t feel I’ll ever get rewarded (except by other people) for virtuous acts. I would hope that no-one would only do virtuous acts for the sake of a reward (I’m aware that some people believe all virtuous acts are really about self-interest but let’s leave Pandora’s can of worms alone).
I basically do good acts partly out of instinct, and partly because society has an implicit moral code, that I subscribe to because on reflection I agree with society’s aims wrt these behaviours.
e.g. I think the world would be better if people were not cheated in financial transactions. Therefore, by not cheating anyone, I already help to make the world a little more like this goal. Of course, my behaviour may not ever benefit myself directly, but so what? As I said, I don’t act merely out of self-interest.
Ok, here’s my denial: I’m not a materialist because the concept of “material” seems ill-defined to me, in light of modern physics, and also, I see no particular reason to make such an assertion about this aspect of reality.
Please point out the weakness in the preceding statement and how I’m “really” a materialist.
Also, I don’t need to argue from materialist premises.
It makes perfect sense to assume the non-existence of god (or any other entity – material or otherwise) until some evidence presents itself. I don’t need to presume the non-existence of the supernatural.
I think you misunderstand me. I am not saying that materialism is the only logical basis for atheism. I am saying that, judging from personal experience, many if not most atheists do base their atheism on a materialist concept of the universe but deny it to shift the burden of argument to the other side. It isn’t a matter of logic, it’s a matter of debating tactics. (Not that theists don’t use some pretty shifty tactics themselves.)
I think showing kindness to people, not because you know them and care about them, but simply because they are members of the human race like you, is one of the biggest reasons we are here on this earth. I don’t mean that God put us here and then said “ok, now care about each other or else”. I don’t believe in God, and I don’t believe that life has any objective, over-arching purpose. What I mean is, showing compassion and understanding gives other people’s lives value.
No one really knows what a stranger is going through; the guy on the street who looks a little worn down could be going through some major life crisis and just trying to get through the day. Doing something small, like opening a door for him or giving him fifty cents for a paper can mean so much because of the fact that you didn’t have to do that. We really have no reason to be kind to strangers, but that’s exactly why we should do it.
In addition, it doesn’t cost you anything. Yes, maybe you lose a couple minutes of your day or some change from your pocket. Honestly, though, if you are so busy that you can’t spare a second to show kindness to someone, you probably need that kindness more than anyone. Here’s a little example: a few years ago, my mother and I had a fight, and I went outside and sat on the curb, crying. A car passed that had two women in it, and they actually stopped driving and asked me if I was okay. They stopped what were they doing, took time out of their lives, because they wanted to make sure some kid crying on the street was okay. I was so astonished at that, because they could just as easily have kept on going, but they didn’t. That one tiny act made me feel so much better that I stopped crying right then. It kind of lifted my spirits and restored my faith that not everyone is a total asshole, that people genuinely have the potential for good.
We all have the feeling sometimes that we are alone in a great sea, that no one really cares about us. Even our best friends can make us feel like that. But when we show compassion and tolerance for others, when we show people that we care about who they are and what they are going through, even though we don’t know them, we make the world a better place. Bit by bit, we uplift the collective soul of the human race and give purpose to each other. We are not given a purpose and a meaning in life; it is our job to make one. I guess the question is, why wouldn’t you show compassion when it doesn’t hurt you and it does so much good in the world?