Matrix Reloaded plot discussion (Spoilers Galore, NO spoiler boxes!!)

Cafe Society
21

I watched the trailers again, and there are shots in the Superbowl trailer and the Japanese trailer which weren’t in the film. Since these trailers were for both sequels, can I assume that they’re scenes from The Matrix Revolutions? The three shots I’m thinking of are Morpheus, Seraph, and Trinity firing guns into a crowd, Trinity fighting someone in black in a room with many stone columns, and some words exchanged beween Trinity and Merovingian: “You give me Neo, or we all die, right here, right now.” “You are ready to die for this man?” “Believe it.”

Also, in the Story trailer, Link says, “It’s all over,” and Trinity responds, “The hell it is.” I don’t recall these lines being in the film, but they’re not exactly super-eloquent, so I could have just forgotten.

22

The Animatrix trailers were commisioned by the brothers and that they oversaw and approved the scripts.

23

I think the “real world” is another Matrix. The original film sort of gives it away when Neo after being shot by the agent and dying comes back to life after being kissed by Trinity. It’s given away again in this film, by Neo’s ability to bring Trinity back to life, affect the sentinals, the dreams and the ability of the agent to enter into the “real” world.

24

I’m wondering about Merovingian and Persephone: both AI, rogue programs having, essentially, free will within the Matrix (similar to the Oracle) but they, these programs, are married and the wife gets jealous of the husband. Mind you, these aren’t human personalities in computer form, they are self described and confirmed programs only. What’s up with that?

I like that Smith has gone viral, though I completely missed that that was him cutting his hand in Zion, even after they showed the guy again at the end of the film.

FTR, I’m beginning to think the Matrix w/in The Matrix is right on the money. This being the case, I foresee (no spoilers here) Neo going Johnathan Livingston Seagull and being able to go anywhere, anywhen within the Matrix. I’m curious to see how this plays out.

25

Actually, I didn’t see it as a Matrix within a Matrix as much as simply two different areas of the same Matrix.

Think of it this way. Neo wants to dial out of the Matrix? Simply drag the file NEO from the EARTH folder and drop him into the ZION folder. (Hey, given that they have to keep rebooting the Matrix, it’s probably running Windows anyway… :wink: )

26

Have you checked out the Animatrix movies yet? If not, you should. Particularly of note is the robot wedding, and the robot murdering his owner. Both give some insight into programmable emotions. Neo’s talk with Oracle in Reloaded is also pretty indicative of independent thought and emotion from programs (even though everything Oracle said is pretty much a lie).

27

Okay, having slept on it, I agree that the nested Matrix is the most likely explanation. But, not to sound corny, that’s exactly what they want us to think! Most people here seem to have come to this conclusion, and I think a lot of us were suspecting it halfway through the first film. So, I concur that that’s what the clues point to, but I’m holding out that it might be a red herring done on purpose. (Just like Darth Sidious and Palpatine, for you Star Wars fans!)

However, assuming that it is a nested Matrix, and assuming that there are only two levels (to keep it simple), is the Architect part of the real world, or part of Matrix Prime? The Real World could be full of aliens, right? With both AI and humans plugged in. Or it could just be AI with humans all a dream, as someone said. That doesn’t explain where Neo went at the end, though.

Whether there is a nested Matrix or not, I predict that Neo will prove everyone wrong, Morpheus and the other humans, the Architect, even the Oracle. He’ll outgrow their superior experience and wind up reaffirming our faith in free will, even if he has to liberate everyone on the planet a million times over. It’s kind of silly, yes, but I think that’s what this film is about, ultimately, and The Matrix Reloaded was written specifically to make us doubt. :slight_smile:

We’re going to see what happens if Neo chooses the door on the left. What exactly happens if he chooses the one on the right? I know he reloads the Matrix, and they rebuild Zion, but what does that mean? Do the machines continue digging and kill everyone there, and then 100 are pulled from the Matrix and given false memories while they’re reloading the program? What happens to Neo? Does he go back in?

28

Incorrect. Neo chose the exact same door that every other Neo chose. Note that the Neo’s in the background are all going the same direction the “real” Neo is going.

The only difference is that The Architect said that if he chooses that door, this time the machines are going to completely kill everyone, instead of letting them rebuild*.

*I could be completely wrong on that detail. Went by too fast.

Anyone else think that they made The Architect speech confusing and too fast just to get people to see the movie again?

29

Haven’t seen it yet, but based on this stuff here it looks like I was right on the money. I’m going to say that if the “real” matrix world exists it is totally run by machines and humans are kept in a simulation as pets because they are too dangerous to be allowed to roam free. The animatrix stuff is probably the truth from the real world. I’m guessing that the only humans, if any, who ever get let out of the matrix are those who realize the machines are in the right. If you rise up and fight them then you stay in the simulation for more brainwashing. I magine very few humans get let out.

The whole another level of the matrix thing really handles the “battery” problem pretty well. Of course that is bad science. It’s just another hint that the “real” world isn’t real. I’m glad to see they took it this way, I got the feeling from other reviews I’ve read that they didn’t do any of these potentialities any justice. Sounds like they raised just the right questions if you were looking. I’ll find out for myself this weekend. Unfortunately, a play that I am in starts a new run tonight, so I have to wait. It’s not very comforting to be going up against the matrix on opening nite . . .

30

I noticed this also. It is probably a minor nitpick, but they definitely only had the port in the back of the head in the first movie.

I think I must have missed something at the end. I am sure someone will come along and enlighten me if I have.

I thought Neo chose the wrong door and that is why the war is still going on and when he and Morpheus are talking about this he lies to Morpheus. Or at least doesn’t tell him the whole story. Yeah, the war is still going on because I chose Trinity over Zion. But I am not sure I understood the architect all that clearly. Probably need to see the movie again. This thread helps, though.

31

neo isn’t overthowing ANYONE any time soon…at least thats the impression I got from the architect scene. Neo is a pawn just like anyone else. Recall how his emotional responses were pre-empted and controllable in the architect’s room?

Look at the bigger picture, the architect has been in control from day one. All the lies and syncronicity, always work out perfectly for the architects plan.

resistence is futile?

32

Pre-empted and controllable?

I thought those were Neo’s responses in the previous five matrices. And he is responding differently now.

33

I’m going to have to go ahead and disagree with the whole “nested Matrix” theory. I think it seems to obvious and, while this is just my opinion, too much of a cop-out.

Obviously, the main evidence for the nested Matrix theory is that Neo stopped the sentinals, right? As Smith explained in the beginning, Neo is somehow merged with the Matrix. Maybe he can affect it even if he isn’t plugged in. That is, in the real world, he can control things like sentinels, because they are controlled by the Matrix. This doesn’t mean he has all manner of super-powers (flying, etc) like in the Matrix world, however.

I think the Architect is the original AI that they talked about in the first movie. “He” was the original machine to achieve consciousness, and eventually wrote the program to enslave humans. However, for some reason there is an error in the program that inevitably results in the One coming into existence. Six times now, this has happened. What I’m unclear on is exactly what the choice was that Neo made: did he crash the matrix? (I seem to remember that Architect saying he could either repopulate Zion with ~20 people, or kill every person plugged into the Matrix when he saved Trinity, because that would cause the Matrix to crash.)

I think Smith is a rogue program now, and when he answered the phone he somehow took over the body of the guy he “stabbed” in the chest. Thus, Smith has made the leap into “reality” (or the Zion Matrix, as it were).

Also, is the French guy a program or a programmer? Is he a human plugged into the matrix somewhere who knows about it and can write his own programs, or more of a rogue program similar to Smith?

Personally, I don’t know that all of these questions have answers, and the movie is just kind of a jumbled mess. I’d be mighty impressed if they tied all these loose ends together in Revolutions.

Oh yeah, and I agree with Munch that the Architect’s speech was needlessly confusing and verbose. Maybe their way of covering up the fact that, deep down, this movie just doesn’t make any friggin sense!

34

Wow, I thought it was clearly neither of those. I don’t think the other Ones were other Neos, and the images were not ones that had happened before. I think that all the screens were choices for his next move, but even though they were laid out before him, the one he chose was not controlled by anyone but him. Remember when the Architect said something and all the Neos said “Bullshit!” or something similar? The Architect said that denial was the most predictable of human responses. (Since they were all the same, it’s easy to predict.) But this means that when there are a variety of responses, it’s not easy to predict.

I thought it was a good way of illustrating Neo making choices, and we’re supposed to understand that this is going on all the time, even if we can’t see it.

35

Ah, but I thought you said you didn’t buy the nested-Matrix theory, eh? :wink:

Neo’s powers in Zion aren’t the only evidence. The fact that the Oracle knew of his dreams in Zion, that the Matrix could predict his actions outside the Matrix, as well as Smith’s entry into Zion all point to both the Matrix and Zion to be on the same Operating System.

36

if zion really is still inside the matrix (a computer system) than its not possible for free will to exist.

37

I’m pretty sure that the screens weren’t replaying previous Neo’s. (For one thing, there were an awful lot more than five of them, while if this is the sixth iteration of the Matrix, there should have been only five previous Ones.) In fact, I don’t think there’s any reason to believe previous Ones were Neo, in that the Architect says that Neo’s much faster about getting to the point than the previous Ones were. My understanding was that the screens usually reflected Neo’s unconscious mind, reacting to the Architect in ways that he wouldn’t necessarily have shown on the outside, like giving him the finger. (Sometimes they’re screens for the Architect to show Neo stuff on, but I think that’s a separate use.) The Architect specifically says that Neo is different from all previous Ones in that he doesn’t love all mankind, just Trinity, and is thus choosing differently from all of them. All of the previous ones have gone through the other door, chosen 16 women and 7 other men (for a nice 2:1 female:male ratio, implying that all of the previous Ones were also male), and refounded Zion.

38

Explain. How is that any different from the world Neo started in being in the matrix?

39

I don’t think the first Matrix had a One, since the One is an artifact of giving the humans a choice, and that’s what was lacking from Matrix the First. So, I think that there were only four previous Ones.

The next person who sees the film again has got to pay attention to the numbers that the Architect says, since everyone seems to remember something different. I remember 63 male, 37 female.

40

No, they kept all the ports in the first movie and this is commented on several times: when Neo first meets Tank, Tank comments that he doesn’t have “holes”, plural, and also when Morpheus is telling Neo about what happened to the real world he points out that the plugs on his neck and arms are gone due to residual self image. You just don’t see any of the other plugs in the real world because everyone is running around with long sleeve shirts except for Tank and Dozer.