Matrix Reloaded plot discussion (Spoilers Galore, NO spoiler boxes!!)

Saw the movie again - I checked the Neo and Architect scene carefully. There are a LOT more audible responses than just 5 or 6, although you can’t make out that many very cleearly. I think they are all supposed to be neo’s reactions. The only other option appears to be that all the other Ones looked identical to Neo, wore the exact same clothing, and so forth. PLus, every screen, regardless of the sound, had a different actions going on.

And Neo basically counted up (with some humorous hand-waving and Carrey-like expressions One! Two! Three! Four! Five!, and I can’t tell if he said Six! or not.

There is another problem with the Matrix-in-Matrix idea: that wouldn’t solve the problem of people not accepting the Matrix. They are already in a totally convincing world thatr they need not question, but they do anyway, and even those that don’t question it (the 99.9% of humanity) seem to slowly wake up to the simple fact that something is not right. Simply because they weren’t in the same system would not account for the discrepency. “Outside” this isn’t happening.

Did anyone else notice in the scene of Neo talk to the architect? That on the screens behind neo they were showing footage from the first movie, and in one of the screens they showed Neo on the Nebuchadnezzar. If I interpret this correctly; the architect has footage of Neo on the ship then Neo would have had to been still in the matrix while on the ship?

oOOoo…good observation Mighty_maxx…unfortunately I have only seen the movie once and obviously didn’t catch that part. I’ll make sure to look for it when I go see it agian :smiley:

It is quite possible, likely in fact, that the video screens only show Neo’s thoughts (like him giving the Architect the finger). Thus, the Architect could be simply showing a memory of Neo aboard the Nebuchadezzar.

UnuMondo

Sweet Jesus, I just read 10 pages. I am not going to make much sense, but let me give it a shot. I just saw the film last night.

First, I have to get this out of the way:
Master Control Program, I mean Architect, “Neo, I am your father!”

K, let me check my notes now…

After the instant Colonel Sanders reaction the Architect reminded me a lot more of the Wizard of Oz than Freud I must say…

LarryMudd and Rubystreak own this thread :slight_smile: Rubystreak has already made half my comments for me, and LarryMudd is making me wonder if he doesn’t have a brother called Andy. I think LarryMudd should use spoilers on his posts, cos it sounds like the whole Gnostic angle is down pat, even including The Ones love of a Triune One, Trinity.

I have read the whole damned thread, but I am going to repeat what other people have said anyhow, I deserve it :slight_smile:
Achernar and SenorBeef are in on my line of thought, the one about food in the Matrix. The Oracles sweets looked EXACTLY like a red pill. Food, including pills, has been shown previously to be a neccessary step in “evolution” in the Matrix, splicing code snippits into people. Persephone in mythology was also “brought somewhere else having eaten what she was given”. Persephone reapplies her lipstick and then kisses Neo, did she force-feed him something?! If it was purely her sucking emotions, then I think it was Trinities rather than Neos, her reaction was so much more “tasty”. I am kinda stuck on the idea of her having transferred something to Neo though.

Rubystreak I believe mentioned this, from the Animatrix “What they do is create a little mini-matrix, stick half-a-dozen humans in it, and then invite the AI-based critter in with them, in order to introduce him to the joys of flesh and make him an ally. It works, but things go wrong, and the story ends with the matriculated AI saving the (female) protagonist from certain death, only to bring her back into the matrix with him, which she’s not too thrilled about.” Is that not “The Rape of Persephone” in a nutshell, at least the last bit?

The screens I think are the possible “branches” for Neos reaction. In order for the AI to be “all-knowing” it has to predict to some extent what will happen given a set of circumstances. To do this, it maps all the possible reactions to any given stimulus. Logically, all the previous Ones reactions would be a part of its “possible response database”, which would easily explain any confusion around them saying “One? Two?” etc.

As to the ethnic make-up of Zion. If the last One was black, it would be (perhaps) be logical that a majority of those he chose as his 23 would be black. Especially if he were for example African. With the core re-population group being of colour, and with the prevelant concept of Zion being the true utopia (where love sees no colour), then the present day population would be a beautiful mix. This also explains why there are no ugly people in Zion :stuck_out_tongue:

Do we know anything of time and aging in Zion? I believe that either the Councilman or Morpheus was the last One. The Counciller speaks of the bond between the machines and men, something that he would know well about if he had met the Architect and chosen to keep the Matrix running. The Morpheus suggestion is not half as strong, but would explain his unerring faith in the One and also fit in with my theory on the ethnic makeup of Zion above. Logically though, my money is on the Counciller.

Smith, and the Matrix-in-Matrix-or-not debate. I believe Zion is the real world, although there are good arguments to be made for the opposite. If nothing else, even if the first 5 Ones were the device of the Architecht, this still leaves room for the coming of the True One, one who is The One in all the ways we believed in the first film, a super man. In that case why would his powers not extend into the real world. However, I believe more that Smith and Neo are now like paired Bluetooth devices.
Smith was a bit wiggy even in the first film, he hates the Matrix and believes the downfall of Zion will set him free. Could then part of what he transferred to Neo be what made him choose to not patch the Matrix and re-build Zion? I think that is very possible, that the Smith-bond is part of what has caused Neo to “break programming” and choose the opposite of what those before him have chosen. I think the wireless theory holds most water in the long run. Smith made it fairly clear, he gave Neo his old wire - he is now wireless. Is it possible that the wireless capibility was transferred to Neo when he was Smith-stabbed? If so, what got transferred to Morpheus in the corridor? What did Smith leave when he Smith-stabbed Morpheus.

Finally I have to congratulate those who made the “Can you DIIIIG IIIIT!” and “Oh, One, OH, ONE, OH!!!” comments. I am still laughing even though it has taken me twice as long to read this thread as to watch the film (to be honest, reading the thread has been much more entertaining than watching the film, I nearly left :frowning: the thread has rekindled my love of all things The Matrix though.

One last question, why were Neo and Trinity so panting-for-it? Apart from the obvious reason of “Who wouldn’t be, have you seen them?!”. Are they not allowed to shag on-board due to it being a military vessel or some such?

The screen I seen couldn’t possible be a memory, unless he remembers in a third person point of view. Remembering himself looking at himself? I don’t think so.

I was definitely wondering if any of the shots we see are outside the Matrix. Could you be more specific as to when and where it shows up? There are a lot of screens.

A publicity photo for the third movie shows Neo in the Matrix punching Smith while several Smiths stand in the background. The unique thing about the shot is that they are all soaking wet because of the rain. It’s good to have a reminder that the Matrix isn’t always sunny perfect weather. Does anyone have any gossip about this scene?

It looks like rain or water might be a frequent symbol of Revolutions. A behind the scenes article about the filming of the second and third movies talks about a scene where Neo is in a dirty hole screaming as water pour down upon him. A nearby quote from Keanu Reeves hints that Neo’s death may be tied to the scene.

UnuMondo

The scene I saw, was in the bottom left (left of neo standing there). The shot was of neo sitting in the chair in the ship just he had been unplugged from the matrix. It was the time he he came out of the Jump program and failed it. He woke up gasping. Wearing a gray sweatshirt, and had a shaved head.

My take:
The Matrix builders wish for perfection but know they probably won’t get it. Much the way a builder builds a house so that no mice can’t get in but they do anyway so you set traps for them. A back-up plan.
People will escape from their copper-top existance, so there are traps. The Oracle. Neo believes - but she is there to misguide him. As a program, though, she might not realize this.

A question…
If Neo really believed through force of will he could save Trinity AND humanity, why not ‘kill’ The Architect before he left the room? That way he could liberate humanity without future interference.

maybe because he wouldn’t know the outcome if he did kill the architect…would the matrix crash (perhaps killing everyone)??? I think it could have just been uncertainty and wanted to think about possible actions first

How do we know that Neo even could kill the Architect? Maybe the Architect would kick his ass.

I was under the impression that the Architect was a program that existed outside the matrix. Since it’s designing the Matrix, that would only make sense - an administrative program on the server(s) that run the Matrix, tweaking the code of the Matrix.

As such, his ‘physical’ form in the film would just be a representation of his program - he wouldn’t be directly tied to it. In a way, he’d back jacking in in the same way the rebels do - only he has no body to ‘make it real’ if he were to die.

And killing the artitect wouldn’t really help save Zion, either.

One issue (the only one I can remember after a week of reading this thread):

  • WHY will the Matrix crash? The Architect says it’s going to happen unless Neo reintroduces his code, or whatever, but what is the proximate cause of the crash? Are errors just building up (and shouldn’t we be seeing that? it seems to be working OK to me)? Is an Agent Smith-type failure the problem (programs are bound to go rogue over time, and adversely affect the Matrix to the point of non-function)? Is it that Neo and the Zionists are reaching the point where their actions have become too blatant for the enslaved humans to “explain away”, and they’ll all wake up, and die (because there’s no way the Zion camp will be able to fish a few billion helpless weaklings out of their own sewage and nurse them back to health before they drown/starve/die of exposure)?

I think it is the latter. It was stated that the original Matrix (the Utopian version) failed because people refused to accept it and, as a result, “entire crops were lost.” I take that to mean that people basically just woke up on their own (and were then flushed out of the system the way Neo was when woken up). Presumably, the more the agents and the Zion folk mix it up within the Matrix, the more and more obvious it will become to the people within the Matrix that it’s not real (seeing people flying tends to do that). Once people stop believing in the reality of the Matrix, they will then reject it and wake up. Presumably there is a critical mass where if enough weird stuff happens, the entire Matrix will crash as people start leaving it en masse.

At least, that’s my theory…

Barry

This guy has seen the film a couple of times and has written a nice article about his theories; might be worth a look:
What Ron Henriques thinks!.

Other than that, I can’t really offer anything new as my theories have already been aired in this thread.

I did like the movie and I am one of those people who didn’t get bored with the fight-scenes:).

-Tikster

I don’t know if this has already been discussed (too much info to remember), but I was discussing the rave/orgy scene with my cousin and this is what we figure.

The whole struggle throughout the two movies is humanity vs the machine/imposed structure and because of this you have the whole emotion/sex/rythm/TACTILE thing. Remember the whole struggle is against the imposed CONTROL against the following of our human impulses/freedom.

As for the sex thing with Neo/Trinity, it can be interepreted to show that Neo is in fact (at least partly) Human…the fact that he still needs/wants Trinity, (and by sneaking off to each other) shows he is still human, subject to the same weakness/streangth. Neo is something in between able to affect both worlds, but belonging to the human.

K it’s very late and i’m too tired to proofread, so I’d welcome some thoughts…no comments on grammar or sleeping

I think you’re right that the rave works as a good contrast to the mechanical world they’re fighting against (especially in, say, the scene with the Architect.

However, I think the greater significance to the Neo/Trinity sex scene is that it’s an occasion which clearly demonstrates that Neo would easily rather be with Trinity than all the other denizens of Zion combined.

Well, yeah, but then again who wouldn’t?

:wink:

Barry