I saw a youtube vid about the world record firewalk - 165 ft/50 meters(approx.)/55 yrds. Have scientists or CSIOP guys ever walked that far on fire using the Water Vapor Theory or Conductivity Theory? I saw a scientist do it for a short distance of only about five steps and he hopped off fast because he was getting a little roasty.
How far have scientists/CSIOPters gone with controlled conditions?
It’s hard to tell, but I assume you’re saying that you’re under the impression that anyone who walks more than five steps over coals is using some kind of mental energy/power to do so?
Let me put it this way: if someone can use mystical powers to walk over coals that non-mystical sceptics couldn’t, then there’s a million dollars in it for them (www.randi.org). Think of the good they could do for the world by using a million dollars to spread their message of love! Yet nobody has stepped forward and passed the test yet.
If you’d rather see skeptics walking on coals, I’m pretty sure Mythbusters did an episode. They’re pretty much scientists/skeptics, yet managed to do just as well as the people who spent all day chanting and meditating. I’m sure some internet searching will find plenty of other examples.
The idea that distance is important is so close to literally moving the goalposts.
“No one can walk on coals without meditation/chanting/supernatural powers/the endorsement of the fire gods in triplicate.”
“No one can walk very far on coals without meditation/chanting/supernatural powers/the endorsement of the fire gods in triplicate.”
The simple answer is: people can walk on hot coals without any of the above things.
Bill Nye has one from his “Pseudoscience” episode in The Eyes of Nye. Firewalking starts at 2:10.
While the water vapor thing is key, it also certainly helps to have really tough feet, a high pain tolerance, and/or a great desire for publicity. Just because the world record firewalk was not performed by a skeptical scientist does not imply that the principles are any different from what the scientist is saying: It could just imply that the scientist is not crazy.
But what if he was walking on burning diamonds? 
I don’t think jakesteele was implying that the recordholder was using any supernatural powers.
He was just asking why this guy has a record doing it, do normal people attempting it have a typical distance limit, why is there a distance limit, and how did this guy break it?
I did the hot coal walk (along with 500 others at a Tony Robbins conference) and we did it for about 10 feet. While my feet suffered no damage it still felt very hot and I’m not sure how much further I could have went before getting an actual burn.
The simplest explanation is that world records are usually far out of reach of those that have never practiced or conditioned for an event. If the record holder beat you by 15 times, that sounds reasonable to me. If you practiced on hot asphalt all summer, you’d probably get a lot closer.
But you’re probably not crazy.
One summer day, us neighborhood kids would see who could sit bare assed on hot black asphalt the longest before running for the relief of the pool.
Its a wonder somebody didnt end up visiting a doctor/ER.
The reason I ask is that years ago I saw people doing it at a short distance 4,5,6 steps depending of height and length of stride. I thought that I had to be the real deal. Later I saw a scientist do it with the vapor deal. Now, guy hedged his bet by wrapping his bare feet with Saran Wrap, wear two pairs of sweat socks and allowing plenty of time elapse to make sure his feet were as wet as he could. Upon taking this socks off he immediately walked with what would be more moisture than regular. In other words, he didn’t do it like the others were doing it. Nonetheless, It seemed reasonable at the time because I figured that if someone could really do it they would do it if for no other reason to shut that critics down. But I never saw that so I figured the vapor thing was the real deal.
Now they have other people doing it for much greater distances than before which I would think would eliminate the vapor explanation because your feet would loose the moisture.
I find some of the posts to give very weak arguments such being highly motivated for publicity, practising so much that his feet toughened up, etc. I lived in Santa Monica and walked many times on blazing hot asphalt and sand and I never did get used to it. I had to wear sandals to the beach where the sand was cooler.
A lot of times I see skeptics selling short on Ocaam’s Razor by always trying to find the simplest explanation without applying the other side of the blade: the simplest explanation is not always the best. Sometimes the explanation is the most unlikely to be the correct one.
I would think that some kind of expert scientist and a CSIOP member would do it just to lay the issue to rest for all time. Have there been Skeptics that have attempted this, and, if so, what was the outcome?
I don’t understand what you’re asking: people have pointed out a couple instances of scientific types on video firewalking. My understanding is that the accepted explanations tend more towards the surprisingly high insulating value of ashes than to vapor barriers, but I think the mythbusters went into some detail.
Are you asking why no skeptic has specifically walked as far as the World Record? Probably because they have other things to do.
If you read things The Amazing Randi has wrten, you’d guess that Randi knows that there’s no such thing as laying the issue to rest for all time. Someone who wants to believe in the supernatural always has another objection, and they always move the goalposts. First, it’s ‘Why haven’t any skeptics walked on fire?’. Then once there are lots of videos of scientists walking on fire, it’s ‘Well, sure they can do it for five yards, but why haven’t any skeptics walked on fire for ten yards?’ And if a skeptic is foolish enough to play the game and walk ten yards, it becomes “Well, OK, that was a distance, but they did it at the full moon, when it’s easier. Only real psychics can walk that distance during a new moon.” and so on, and so on.
I guess what I’m saying is:
** jakesteel**: Is there anything a skeptic could do that would in fact lay the issue to rest for you? Is there any evidence that would make you say “Why, yes, that is clear and convincing, and I have changed my position.” ?
If I did my math right, 55 yards is a long ass haul. I’m asking, have any kind of a skeptic/scientist walked that far. They’ve shown how it can be done for a short distance. I guess what I’m asking is if the vapor effect, insulation and Conductivity Theory would hold up for 55 yards? It seems like that is a long way to go on those things but I simply don’t know. I know for myself, but I would like to see someone from the skeptic side do it. I think that would lay it to rest for all time. But I sure as hell ain’t going to try it myself until I see someone who is not claiming the woo woo effect do it.
I dunno about how much moisture is going to be lost vs. additional amounts sweat by the feet during a walk that long, but the video you linked to has the guy walk over a particularly ashy, swept bed of coals. I’d guess that the added insulation from the ash is a major reason why he was able to do a “firewalk” of that distance.
Hi Jakesteele. I think I can help you with this.
I have firewalked on about a dozen occasions, and I have helped people to orgnaise firewalks. It’s not much of a claim to get excited about, but I think I was the second person in the UK to demonstrate that fire-walking has nothing to do with mind control, and everything to do with the physics of heat conductivity.
First point, for the safety of all concerned AND the legal liability of our hosts here at the SDMB: no matter what information appears in this or any other thread, do NOT try fire-walking on your own. You’ll get hurt. Even though it’s true that anyone can do it, there are plenty of important points to observe about how the ‘fire wallk’ itself is set up and created, how long to let it burn, the timing of the walk and so on. You should only ever try firewalking under the care and supervision of people who have organised firewalks before, and who know what they are doing.
There’s no water or water vapour involved. I don’t know where you got this from, but anyone who wants to firewalk wants the feet as dry as possible. I can see that you might think otherwise, in the sense that ‘wet feet’ = ‘cooler and insulated’. But it doesn’t work like that. Whatever the supposed benefits, the potential for harm outweighs them. In practice, the ‘insulation’ effect just doesn’t materialise, or only lasts a fraction of a second. Wet feet simply mean you are more likely to slip or stumble. Wet feet also mean you can suffer the effects of effectively ‘steaming’ your feet, which you do not want to do.
Firewalking is possible because of factors to do with thermal conductivity. When you firewalk, you are usually walking on the red hot embers left after you burn some wood for several hours in a shallow pit and and rake it down flat. The members are very hot, usually a few hundred degrees. But the crucial point is not how hot the embers are, but how quickly they can conduct this heat energy to the skin on your feet. And the fact is, wood is only a moderately good conductor, so it’s usually possible to walk across the embers for 10 or 12 paces before your feet receive enough heat energy for it to be painful or to cause burns.
There are many variables that affect how ‘long’ you can walk. The type of wood you use, the fuel you use to get the fire going, the weather conditions and presence of breezes and air currents, the thickness of the skin on the soles of your feet, the exact manner in which you walk, your body weight, how long you leave the embers to settle… all of these factors and more can play a part. In every public firewalk I’ve been part of, pretty much everyone was able to manage 7 or 8 paces, and it wasn’t unusual to see people taking 10 or 12 paces. My own record is something like 12 paces. Whoever holds the record for the longest successful walk, without injury, just had all the ideal circumstances at the right time and in the right place.
Doctor Richard Wiseman, at the university of Hertfordshire, organised a test of people who subscribed to the ‘mind over matter’ theory and who claimed, very confidently, that they could walk on coals almost indefinitely, thanks to their mind power training. This was televised. None of them was able to walk any longer or for any greater duration than anyone else - including skeptics who knew the ‘mind control’ theory was rubbish.
Some people firewalk chanting mantras like ‘cool, wet grass’. I and others have walked the coals chanting ‘Raging fires of hell!’. It makes absolutely no difference, but it’s funnier.
Fiurther to my previous post, you may enjoy some of the videos here:
http://badpsychics.co.uk/thefraudfiles/modules/news/article.php?storyid=111
(If the link doesn’t work, just go to badpsychics and search on ‘fire walk’.)
Some of the videos concern ‘world record’ attempts, and some of them show woo-woo advocates getting their feet toasted.
Would you do it with exact same conditions using the sweat theory?
Can you rephrase that? I’m unsure what you’re asking.
Water Vapor Theory is what I saw the scientist do. I guess what’s got me curious is that this guy walked 55 yards which would be approximately 55 steps assuming 1 yard steps. 55 is way higher than anybody I’ve ever heard of. So far it’s been 5-12 steps. I would really like to see Bill Nye the Science Guy do it. I know he could use the million. Uven under the ideal conditions you gave, I would be too scared to do it. Maybe if a skeptic kind of person, especially a high profile guy like Bill.
I am wondering if anybody on this site would do it to claim the million?
Obviously not, or the guy you’re talking about wouldn’t be the world record.
And I’ll bet you that when that fellow finished setting the record, his feet hurt like Hell. Maybe he’s willing to burn his feet for the sake of publicity, but people like ianzin aren’t. Are you seriously saying that you think that ianzin should hurt himself just to prove a point that should have been proven anyway without the pain?
Sorry, I don’t know who Ianzin is, but we don’t know if his feet really hurt, it wouldn’t suprise me, it seems like the perfect thing for a Bill Nye guy to do, especially if he could pocket a million bucks. He would be killing two birds with one stone. If I knew I could do it and not get burned, I would do it just for the money. I don’t care about publicity. If a Bill Nye guy is making claims that he has debunked it by giving “plausable” explanations, then he should put his coals where his feet are. You can’t just say, well, here’s how it’s done. Now, remember, I saw the scientist guy do it fair and square for approximately 5-6 steps, but I have never seen or heard of a skeptic do it for 50 yards.