Are you coining that, or do you believe that “ert” is a word?
Holy cats, Kong, is there no more room for whimsy on this board? Really?
Keep on keeping on, Bo.
That’s right I am now dealing in truth, or should that be facts?
Once we accept that we are made up of the same stuff as the universe we can no longer place ourselves above it as God’s creation. We are just a bunch of elements etc that somehow can be self aware.
Like I said once I accepted this and let go of the last elements of magic belief I was at that point ready to accept my non or atheism.
I still think that life is wonderful and am still full of awe at what this universe is, I will still push the idea that religion is a metaphor for how to live. Not always correct but flawed just like human thinking is.
Doh, ya got me hear I was being all pious and serious and you enter a whimsical sentiment, keep it coming Bo!
I consider myself an agnostic who, deep down, believes, but doesn’t actually know, there is no god. So I believe in atheism, but I cannot actually know it is correct, so it is a matter of belief. Clear?
I came to atheism through a gradual realization that all the world’s religions have fulfilled an anthropological need. A need for social and moral structure, to assuage the instinctive fear of dying, etc.
Once I realized that, it was easy to see that the world around us is defined by its physcical properties, and constrained by finite and immutable physical laws - we may not fully understand these laws yet, but there they are. If there is some greater consciousness out there (say some neural network of interstellar plasma and stardust) it’s ruled by the same physical laws as I am, and thus, has no purview over me.
ETA: Oh, and sisu - welcome to the club! We may be godless, but we know how to PAR-TAY!
As there is one cosmos, so is there one consciousness. No cosmos, no consciousness, then there is “you”. Solipsism.
Yeah this is the area that I have the most trouble with, what separates me from you?
I like to use the analogy that an iceberg is separate to the ocean even though it is part of the ocean. When the iceberg melts [dies] it becomes one with the ocean once again. We are icebergs floating around in an ocean called the universe. Pretty simple and maybe naive but works for me.
Because “we’re the universe made aware” is a plenty nice sentence that I fully endorse. You’re just lacking faith :mad:
Also, the universe works in mysterious (but self-aware) ways. 
Yeah. Communion usually involves copious amounts of tequila, and baptism is done in a hot tub! Get to it!
One of us, one of us!
I remember when I realized that intellectual honesty required me to admit I was an atheist. I literally felt a sense of vertigo, as well as fear. But I got better!
Now my favorite philosophical statement, which brings me a lot of comfort, is “Shit happens.” I’m totally serious. It is such a relief to give up the idea that there’s something out there deciding everything should happen. Sometimes random crap happens and it can suck, but at least no one’s out to get you!
For those interested in the interconnectedness of everything in the universe and such ideas, check out http://www.thesecularbuddhist.com/
So as an Atheist how do you deal with wonder and awe? Can it be called a spiritual experience?
I understand the mechanics of hormones and chemicals etc, but why does staring at a hubble photo or watching a perfect sunset evoke a sense of wonder and awe?
I am a true agnostic and not an atheist. I am a huge fan of science and oddly that is what has cemented my belief in staying agnostic and not having much respect for atheists. It comes from the limitations of science and oddities an awe of theoretical physics. Even most knowledgeable people gloss over or ignore the fact that the is one honest to God miracle we have proof of. It is the miracle of creation of the universe itself. There is no known scientific explanation for it and many physicists say that we won’t ever have one because we are restricted to our own space-time and can’t ever see beyond that. That is pretty weird and matches oddly well with the earliest parts of the story of Genesis although that may just a coincidence.
I have come to accept that not only that humans don’t understand everything behind the universe or multi-universes, we may not be capable of it. That doesn’t mean the explanation lies in any current religion but the implications of that leave plenty of room for spirituality and forces greater than ourselves.
Because it’s beautiful and magnificent?
I’ve never understood the need to label one’s beliefs. You think what you think; make up your own name for it if it doesn’t fit into a previously developed concept. I mean, it’s nice to think one isn’t the ONLY one who believes in the spaghetti monster, but really, it’s not like opening the box will change what’s inside. Rather, if it DOES change what’s inside, then it’s all pretty suspect anyway.
Great. Now I have to come up with a name for my beliefs, which range somewhere between “If there are gods, they’re assholes and we need to have a word” to “I don’t care if every god ever thought about really exists, same for if no gods exist; aint’ changin’ my ways”.
Oh right…Apatheist, I think someone came up with in another thread.
I’m far more interested in the need people in general, over time, have had for the need to label such things. It isn’t as if it’s lead to any better understanding or anything.
There are multiple errors in this post. First, agnosticism is not some kind of middle position between theism and atheism. Agnosticism is not a theistic position at all, but a belief about whjat it’s possible to know. Agnosticism does not preclude being either an atheist or a theist. Atheism is a lack of theistic belief. It does not necessarily denote a positive belief that gods don’t exist (that would be a subset of atheism called “strong atheism”).
Secondly, you would have to explain what is “miraculous” about the origin of the universe. You are incorrect that we have no scientific explanation for it. We do. it’s called the Big Bang.
In more general terms you might say that we don’t know and (maybe will never know) exactly what (for lack of a better word) “caused” the Big Bang, but that doesn’t mean it was magic. That’s just God of the gaps. Furthermore, we do have hypotheses which do not require gods.
You also say that we don’t know “what lies behind the universe or multiverses,” but that carries a presumption that there necessarily has to be anything “behind” the universe (whatever that means) other than (perhaps) the random tantrums of the quantum field.
Finally, the Big Bang does not, in any way, jibe with either of the creation stories in Genesis. Do you think the earth was formed before the sun?
How can it not?
You don’t think ‘hormones and chemicals etc’ are the cause of wonder and awe, rather than the mechanism, do you?
You didn’t really disagree with me on most points. I said I was agnostic because people don’t seem to be capable of understanding everything that is going on in the universe. Furthermore, the common usage of atheism is of strong atheism which is very unimaginative and simply rubs a lot of people the wrong way.
I was talking about the before the Big Bang (I know what people will say. “Ah, but there is no before the Big Bang”. We still aren’t getting anywhere) which is what many people would love to know but it is supposed to be impossible. My point is summed up in this Farside cartoon. I stand by position that the creation of the universe is a miracle by any definition at this point to the best of our understanding. That in and of itself still leaves much broader questions open.
That’s not a Farside, it’s Sidney Harris, and it doesn’t relate to the Big Bang.
A “miracle,” by definition is a suspension of or intervention in the physical laws of the universe by some supernatural agent.
What physical laws do you think were violated by the Big Bang, and why do you think a supernatural agent was involved?
If you’re using the word “miracle” in a more figurative sense, like “the miracle of childbirth,” then I wont contest the point, but it really has nothing to do with the theistic questions unless you think it literally needs a supernatural explanation.