There’s a Pit thread about it already, but I’m interested in the medical ethics of the situation, especially if the child is underage. If a father asks a doctor to check his daughter for virginity, what should the doctor do? It seems obvious to me that it’s wrong, both ethically and morally for a doctor to accede to this wish (and thus violate the consent of a child – who can’t consent to such an unnecessary procedure). But can a doctor lie about it (i.e. take the daughter into an exam room, chat with her for a bit, and then tell the parent that it’s all good)? Should a doctor notify child services? Is there existing ethical guidance for such a situation?
Ethically, I’d hope the doctor would explain to the father than unless the girl tells him she lost her virginity, she was caught having sex or (in most cases) she’s pregnant, that there’s no medical way to tell. Further, hopefully the doctor would explain that just because a hymen is no longer intact doesn’t mean she’s had sex.
Lying to the dad about checking her hymen and telling him she has/hasn’t had sex based on what the doctor sees would serve only to make things worse for everyone involved.
I am not a doctor by any means, but I think the most ethical thing would be for the doctor to tell the parent to F off. Unfortunately, the parent might just simply go to a different doctor instead until he/she finds one who will do it.
I am a doctor, used to take care of kids, and would have refused such a request as ‘not medically necessary’ unless there was legitimate concern about a possible sexual assault. If so I would have turned the case over to a trained sexual assault nurse examiner.
I don’t have a link, but is there a HIPPA concern with the father sitting in the room with the daughter pressuring her to consent to releasing her information to him? To me, that was the part that was creepy as hell and probably breaking some laws.
Nitpick: HIPAA, not HIPPA
In general, a parent is the guardian of a minor and has access to all information and decisions regarding that child. “The most important thing to note is that the Privacy Rule grants parents access to their children’s medical records.” The primary exception is suspected abuse or neglect by that parent.
On the chance that the father believed this to be a valid medical procedure/test to determine if his underage daughter was sexually active, I could understand why he’d want it done. The fact that he would ask a doctor to do it (as opposed to checking it himself) makes me think it’s the case.
My concern, however, is that it could be part of a pattern of abuse, or at least really poor parenting.
If a parent did ask you to do this, it seems like it could be a good opportunity to get the kid alone for a few minutes and ask her a few questions to determine if, perhaps, CPS needs to get involved.
I’m sure most doctors would decline to actually do it and hopefully explain why it wouldn’t be useful even if they did check, and I’d hope that it’s simply the request of a misinformed parent, but ISTM that it could be part of a bigger problem.
But, and I’m in no way defending any of it, I can certainly understand what a parent is going through when they’re frustrated with their kid and, in this case, regarding being sexually active, at their wits end.
It reminds me of something I’ve heard many new parents say, and I know I’ve thought it at one point or another, "I would never shake my baby, but I understand why it happens’.
Being poorly informed (ignorant?) is not necessarily the same as abusive / a bad parent.
If the request continues after a coherent explanation by a doctor why it’s not necessary or useful - then yeah, sure. However as a simple request out of concern…
There are two issues, here. The first is that the father thinks that checking the hymen is a valid way of scientifically determining whether a girl has had sex. Ignorance about that point does not make one a bad parent.
The second and much bigger issue, however, is the father thinking that there’s some need for a scientific way of determiinng whether his daughter has had sex. The usual way for determining that is to, you know, talk to her.
Or, you know, mind his own business.
I’m not condoning this specific practice, but the goings on of a parent’s minor child is their business. It’s part (or all, really) of raising a kid.
I’m reminded of the old joke that Ann-Margaret was the only actress with her hyphen intact.
Even minors should have a right to privacy with respect to their own bodies.
And any father who needs to know whether his daughter is a virgin is a sick fuck.
It’s very different from a parent’s duty to ensure that ēs child is safe, properly educated and knows when and how to ask for help in matters of the body.
I’ll strongly disagree with that. If my 11 or 12 or 14 year old is sexually active, I’d like to know about it because it’s something that needs to be discussed. She needs to understand that, even at 13ish, she can get pregnant. At any age, she can get an STD.
Is it none of my business if my 12 year old’s sleeping with a teacher?
Even a high school kid may not fully understand that sleeping with their same aged SO is one thing, sleeping with a 40 year old is rape.
You’re welcome to call me a sick fuck, but I’m not going to mind my own business when it comes to my minor child becoming sexually active.
Honestly, keeping this kind of stuff bottled up is why pedophiles can exist.
To be clear, I’m not asking her to tell me if she kissed someone for the first time or if she has feelings for someone or even if she’s dating someone, but I think I’ll still maintain that if my grade school aged kid is having sex, it’s absolutely my business and not only doesn’t make me a sick fuck, but rather a responsible and involved parent.
ETA, and I’m offended that you’d consider me a sick fuck for wanting to know if my kit is having sex.
I can imagine a scenario of a divorced father concerned that say his underage daughter was being sexually abused by say a live-in boyfriend of his ex-wife, or maybe someone that was babysitting the child, or something and that could potentially be a younger child as well, and that might be a real reason to inquire with the doctor about examining the child, I don’t know the exact process of how that would work in the real world, but at least there probably is a real scenario where it would be reasonable to request something like that. It wouldn’t be a request for a virginity inspection per se but rather if sexual abuse has occurred.
Yes, whether or not your minor child of any gender is having sex is your business. However, dragging the kid to the doctor for a hymen inspection is not the way to go about it. As mentioned numerous times, the state of a woman’s hymen proves nothing about her sex life. Hymens can be stretched/torn by sports, riding horses, and various other activities. If the girl masturbates this might happen. Plenty of sexual acts don’t involve the vagina, or penetrating the vagina.
This focus on virginity and hymens seems archaic to me, valuing a girl’s virginity over everything else.
And if TI did find out his daughter was no longer “intact”? What then? Is he going to assume she’s a dirty slut sleeping around or is he going to ask if she was raped or molested? Would he disown his daughter if she isn’t “pure” enough?
This is different than making sure your kid is informed about sex and STD’s, has access to birth control, and knows there’s an open door to come to you about what’s going on in her/her life.
Yeah, but are you going to have yearly hymen inspections and insist on being in the room when the doctor is doing it? Would you ignore a medical doctor who tells you that you can’t tell if a girl is virgin or not by examining her vagina?
Making it clear to a kid that dad won’t take their word on thing but is going to haul them to the doctor once a year to inspect their genitalia for sexual activity doesn’t strike me a scenario where the kid is likely to come to dad about being molested or raped. What message is being sent here?
You won’t ask her about her first kiss or her feelings about other people? WTF? You *don’t *want the kid to tell you what’s going on in her head? I thought you wanted to know what’s going on with her?
I don’t consider a parent a “sick fuck” or even a “creepy parent” for wanting to know if their kid is having sex. I do consider it bizarre to the point of creepy/sick to go about it by medical exams on their genitals. Exams which don’t, actually, tell you whether or not the kid is having sex. THAT’s the part that’s creepy.
Yes, that is a possible scenario. But you don’t deal with that situation by taking the kid to the doctor and saying “inspect her hymen to see if she’s still a virgin”. You do it by taking the kid to the doctor, then taking the doctor aside and saying “I’m concerned that she’s being sexually molested, can we check for that?” Because for that you need to check more than just the vagina, you’re basically asking for a rape kit to be done which inspects more than just the vagina, and for the doctor to carefully question the kid. It means looking for STD’s not just in the vagina but the rectum and mouth/throat as well.
If all a daddy wants is the hymen inspected then it’s not about investigating a possible molestation, it’s about controlling his daughter’s sex life.
I had a reply to several of the points raised here but it basically amounted to what **Broomstick **said…so…yeah, that.
That’s nice and all, but Joey P was only speaking to the sexually active part, and had already said they didn’t condone the virginity testing part. And it was entirely over that first part that Acsenray had called him, and myself, and any parent* who would want to know if my minor kids started having sex, “sick fucks”. So you’re pretty much preaching to the converted there.
- Actually, he only called fathers that. I guess mothers can know if their daughters have started becoming sexually active without condemnation? And sons, what about them?
In the pit thread that I started I don’t think I made the point explicitly but my accusation of sexism/misogyny towards TI was certainly based on my assumption that he wouldn’t apply that standard equally (it so rarely is)
I’d certainly extend my disapproval to any and all invasive medical virginity tests for boys and girls, carried out by any parent. The controlling behaviour exemplified by TI is wholly unjustified in my opinion. There are other far better ways of having conversations about sexual activity. My wife and I purposefully have never had separate discussions with our son (12) and daughter (14) and haven’t imposed different expectations of behaviour either. There are the practicalities of the different risks of course but even those conversations have been couched in terms of “it is an issue for both of you”.