Megan's Law--what is more important?

I live in New Jersey, where Megan’s Law is in effect. A convicted child sex offender/murderer moved in about 1/4
mile from my house and two houses from a school bus stop.
60 Minutes did a segment on this last night, and showed the Guardian Angels passing out notices about this guy.

What is more important. The right of people to know a convicted child molester is living in their town, or the child molester’s right to privacy? And why would a convicted child molester/murderer move to Englewood, New Jersey where everyone knows everyone’s business?

Bada bing…


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I have worked with ex offenders for 20+years, have attended seminars about sex offenders in particular, live in MI where we have a web site with offender registry information.

In the first place, I feel strongly that molestation is a horrid act, that people who do should be punished. I am glad that there’s been more attention there and that sentences are generally longer than they’ve been in the past. I feel for your circumstances, Annie-Xmas, but frankly, for all you know, there may be a child molester living next door to you right now (one that hasn’t been convicted yet for example).

The following is also pretty much posted at the other thread on the subject (“do Megan’s laws work”)

The assumption is that molesters are more likely to reoffend than other convicted offenders, and that is wrong. Flat out. Molesters who molest their same sex are more likely to reoffend than those who molest opposite sex. Molesters who molest within their own family are less likely to reoffend than those who molest strangers. But molesters, as a group are less likely to reoffend than other offenders.

What Megan’s Laws DO is create a large cumbersome expensive structure that allows some parents to FEEL as if they are doing something concrete to protect their child.

In MI, the sex offender registry contains many errors (including having addresses listed where no molester lives, can you imagine how fun that is?).

And what are you going to do with the information? Burn the guys house down (that’s been done)? Warn your child to stay away from that bad man there?

Let’s examine that last one. This is the tactic that frightens me the most. Children do not process information the same way we do. When you point the man out as being bad, and stay away, what they hear is that pretty much every one else is ok.

Your child is most likely to be molested by some one the family knows and trusts already. So, my preference to protect my child is to make him a bad victim.

I taught him that he should NEVER keep a secret from me and if some one told him to do so, to hurry and tell me right away. I told him to never go anywhere unless I knew about it first. Not simply “don’t go to that man’s house” or “get into cars with strangeres”. Molesters are very, very good at getting kids to comply with them (Here, I’ve got something to show you. Can you help me find my puppy? etc). Molestations can occur in closets, cars, open areas etc.

I taught him that if some one tried to physically grab at him, he should scream bloody hell. I’ve taught him to tell me immediately if ANYONE ever wants to take his picture, give him a present, have him go somewhere, play “special” games.

Knowing who the convicted abusers are is important for the police in order to investigate a crime. Of course, even for the police it does nothing if the person hasn’t been convicted yet.

About the only thing you might be able to accomplish is to make sure that abuser doesn’t molest your child. And I’m not even guarenteeing that. But at the same time, you may be setting your child up to be a more perfect victim for some one else.

Good response Wring.

Annie Xmas: I don’t want to sound cranky or nasty, but I am just curious why you decided to open this thread when there was another thread on the same topic? Please give me some feedback. Was my post off the mark? I just need to know.

I’ve seen a few programs on Megan’s Law. Frankly, it scares the hell out of me. These people have served their time, yet continue to be punished. Can you say “scarlet letter,” boys and girls? I cringe to think who’s next and how far this would go.

Has this reached the USSC yet?

Esprix

Fortunately, child molestation doesn’t affect me. I wasn’t molested, we don’t have Megan’s Law in my area, and I have no children to protect from previous or potential molesters.

That said, I was all for Megan’s Law until I read wring’s post. Now I’ll have to reconsider. Will I change my viewpoint? I don’t know, but it certainly gave me food for thought.

I think that anything, if taken completely in isolation, won’t have the desired effect it was intended for. If parents only teach their children to stay away from the bad man and don’t bother teaching them how to tell why a bad man was a bad man then yes, it will be harmful. It would be the same as me saying “I know there are police officers to protect me, so I don’t need to bother doing it myself.”

I agree with the Brady bill. I never, for even a second, believe that that law alone will stop all gun violence in the US. What it will do is cut down on violent criminals having access to deadly weapons.

Megan’s Law will never stop child molesting. But it will cut down on the access that known abusers have to children. Is it worth the effort, and money, for the results that are produced? I don’t know.

I certainly empathize with those whose houses have been burned down. I think it’s awful that the wrong people are being listed as child molesters. That, I believe, should be stopped immediately.

Esprix, Megan’s Law prolongs the punishment. That IS part of their sentence. It would be like saying “criminals shouldn’t have probation when they get out of prison, they’ve already done their time.”

Probation is not punishment, and I believe Megan’s law is, especially considering what communities do with the information they’re given.

Esprix

Sorry. I posted this before your thread was moved
to Great Debates. I had the whole 60 Minutes segment
on my mind.

What do you base these statements on? The sex offenders saying they won’t do it again? The fact that they are not caught doing it again? Or do you follow them around 24 hours a day to make sure they don’t do it again? The idea that someone who molests boys is more to do it again is ludicrous and homophobic. It is impossible to change sexual
orientation, and since most offenders do not believe they did anything wrong, they have no motivation to change.

Any sex offender who commits more than one violation should
be locked up and the key should be thrown away. The guy in
Englewood, New Jersey molested five children and killed two.
And people think he has a right to be in society?

Apperently I misread the OP. I thought you were asking for comments on Maegan’s Law in general, not in the specifics of this one individual application.

I assume that Wring read the OP the same way.

I also was going to ask for a cite for the information about relative rates of recurrence, not because I thought they were absurd but because they disagree with statements that I have often seen in the popular press.

BTW:

I do not find the idea ludicrous, though I would need to see good numbers before lending it particular credence.
As to homophobic, I would think that the equation of pedophiliac to homosexual is more likely to strike that particular cord. I did not see wring make that equation, but your response seems to imply it.

Annie Xmas - “what am I basing this on, their statements?”

No, dear, I’m basing the statement about general recidivism on the basis of research. I’ve looked it up on the web, I’ve talked to a gentleman who conducted further research. In addition to my (repeating once again) 20+ years experience working with ex offenders in the community. In addition to the seminars I’ve attended on crime, punishment, corrections etc. The data on the specific cross sex vs. same sex, in family vs. stranger came from a research project conducted by a Professor up in Canada who studied only sex offenders for over a decade.

Again, please do NOT assume it has anything to do with homosexuality. The attraction to children has nothing to do with homosexuality. The fact that this research found a slight difference in the recidivism rates based on the different categories has nothing to do with consenual sexual activity between adults.

Here’s some of the sites that back up about what I’ve stated:

http://venus.soci.niu.edu/~archives/TOMPAINE/feb97/0130.html

http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/pblct/forum/e082/e082k.shtml
While you’re busy demanding back up for my statements (other than my noted experience in the field, ) you should prepare back up for your statement that “most offenders don’t believe they’ve done anything wrong, they don’t have any motivation to change”

Based on what? All you’ve told us about is that you watched a tv program on the subject. I said that I’d based my statement on my years of experience in the field, dealing with many child molesters, research I’ve studied as well as seminars on the subject. I guess I also have seen a couple of tv shows, too. And, based on my background, I don’t find your statement supported by fact. Where did you come up with it.?

You are entitled to your opinion about throwing away the key. Please also, though keep in mind that the term “child molester” at least in my state also includes the 16 year old who gropes his 15 year old girlfriend. It also includes the person who had what they thought was consenual sex with another person who turned out to be underage (though they’d lied about it). NOt to mention the famous McMartin case in which it was determined A LONG TIME AFTER, that the case was unsupported in fact.

When was the last time you asked for positive proof of age and identity before you touched another person? Maybe you should consider doing so. Frankly, one other thing I’ve done with my son is to tell him that before he touches a woman, he’d better have seen her school pictures in several year books, interviewed her mother AND seen positive photo proof of her identity.

the data on the recidvism rates for the different kinds of molesters came from a study done by a man whose last name is Marshall. He’s from Queens University in Canada and does not appear to be linked on line. However, if you follow the links I"ve already provided, you’ll see him listed there. I heard him speak at a convention in Chicago about 5 - 6 years ago.

Esprix,

I disagree. I think that probation is indeed punishment. In the same way that sitting in a corner isn’t the same as being grounded for two weeks, probation isn’t quite the same as Megan’s law. But it is punishment.

If the law says that after you are released from prison, you must go door to door telling people you felt up a five year old, that’s the law. It’s part of your sentence regardless of whether there are bars around you. By the same token, seeing a P.O. is a continuation of your punishment for a crime after you’re released from jail. No one goes to probation voluntarily.

If you’d like to make a argument about Megan’s Law being “cruel and unusual” punishment, I’d be willing to listen. But right now they’re both legal and I don’t have a problem with either of them.

** Enderw23** one other thing to consider, though, is that the “Megan’s Laws” were retroactive. So some one who had already been convicted, and sentenced, served out their sentence, etc. also has to comply with new regulations imposing a consequence subsequent to their conviction and ocmpletion of prior sentence.

In general, we don’t allow “changing the rules” in the middle.

Let me make my point clear, please. I believe child molesting is heinous and shouldn’t be tolerated. Let’s also keep in mind, though, that some cases are not as clear cut as we’d like.

(just one example, there are others) I think that it’s materially different when a 17 year old is groping their 15 year old SO, than the 46 year old groping a 4 year old. The law in my state does NOT make any difference for those two situations.

If you want life sentences w/o parole for the crime, change the laws, lobby for that sanction to be imposed. (in some cases, I have no problem with it).

HOWEVER. if you plan to have the person released back into society, I feel productive to require supervision by a suitable parole/probation, to require counseling (which shows promise), to require work etc, and to notify police authorities.

The notification of the public systems that I’ve seen are expensive, cumbersome, often filled with errors, give people a false sense of security, can be used to promote vigilante justice, and have little if anything to recommend them.

wring, obviously we will disagree on this subject. I can see where you are coming from. A few points:

I have studied the subject of child molestation and repeat
offenders for decades. I have a degree in Early Childhood
Special Ed and have worked with victims of violence. I agree
the terms need to be changed, and it is a nebulous area.
I wouldn’t want to be the one to have to do it.

I was best friends with a guy who was a police officer for 25 years, and have discussed the topic with many cops. They agree that changing these people is a lost cause.
Every grown up I’ve spoken with who was convicted of sexually abusing a child has justified or excused their
behavior. “Yeah, I did it, but…” I’ve heard the same excuses you probably have (the child wanted it, wasn’t
really hurt, I was crazy but I won’t do it again.) It made
me sick.

Even if an adult molests only one child, does their time and then is released, does that make it “better.” They still did it. Or would you want a one time offender who claims to be cured living with you and your children? That is the real test.

An incestous molester rarely goes outside the family? Does that make it better–molesting your relatives instead of strangers?

As to requiring proof of age before touching anyone–I do
not touch people without their permission. To do so is
(a) illegal; and (b) just plain bad manners. I’m not crazy
about being touched, but you would be amazed at how people react when you ask them not to touch you. If a 45 year old woman who knows self-defense can’t convince some people to keep their hands off, what hope does a child have?

Your points are all valid, and certainly Megan’s Law as it stands is the law. I even won’t argue that probation is punishment, but I still see Megan’s Law as being, shall we say, more punishment-like than a usual criminal probation. I support probation and extended post-release counseling for child molesters, but I think notifying neighbors door-to-door is excessive and tramples over a lot of rights, not just for the offender (who, don’t get me wrong, most assuredly deserves punishment), but it’s the horrifying potential for what freedoms it might impinge upon others who do not deserve such punishment that make me stand against this law. Look, I’m a sexual minority, so call me paranoid, but I see these things as potentially adversely affecting me and my loved ones, and it scares me.

And let’s not forget the lengthy list of reasons wring raised as to why Megan’s Law is, in many ways, ineffectual and a false sense of security for parents, a dangerous situation in and of itself.

All in all, I think Megan’s Law a bad idea. (Again, the disqualifier that I of course think child molestation is a heinous crime and should be, as effectually as possible, punished and sought to be corrected.)

Esprix

Obviously we disagree. I still would like you to provide sites that support your contentions. The idea that the police agree that changing these people is a lost cause is hardly evidentiary nor surprising. they see only people who have not reformed. If your assumption is true, then we’d see a nearly 100% recidivism rate, and instead, what the FACTS show is that molesters have a much lower than aveage recidivism rate. which would imply that if they aren’t “cured” they are at least not molesting again (and since the police are always notified of known molesters in the area, they would be checked out if new cases came about).

Many of the people I worked with were also the victims of c/m and other abuse as well. And, frankly, although I ** have heard ** some of the thoughts you claim are rampant, ** most** of them clearly understand that what they’ve done was reprehensible and has serious consequences for all concerned. They’ve also accepted responsibility for their actions, express remorse for their victims.

What I am in favor of is a reasonable policy. If you want all molesters locked up forever, change the laws, lobby to do that. If some are going to be out, then I want them busy, working as many hours as week as possible. I ** don’t ** want them with time on their hands.

and I fail to see how Megans’ Laws provide one iota of additional safety to anyone. It provides a metaphysical bandaid on a gaping wound. It allows parents to falsly believe that they are protecting their child, while remaining ignorant of facts.

**

that’s the common arguement “would YOU want to live next to a molester?” My answer is "how do you know you’re ** not?** You have no way of knowing. none. zero. you pat yourself on the back 'cause you know the guy on the next block has a conviction, while ignoring the real possibility that the kindly grandfatherly type across the street that was so helpful to you when your car was broken down is one too.

And frankly, yes, there have been times when I knew there were all sorts of criminals living near me. Rememember I work with them for a living. So, I lived across the street from a drug abusing theif. Lived down the street from a drunk driver or two. Another con artist moved in. Bank robber around the corner. Child molester, same place, different time. Strong armed robber, yep. Bad check artist? check. Prositute? yep.

I repeat. Protecting my child is my responsibility.

**

of course not. And, what’s more, I was specifically not saying that - don’t put words in my mouth. I’ve repeatedly stated “I think molestation is a heinous crime” what part of that wasn’t clear? if it is clear, then please refrain from remarks that do nothing to further debate.

Reading is fundemental, isn’t it? your answer does not speak to the question I submitted to you. which was “do you require proof of age and identity before you touch anyone?” the “consensual” part was understood. My point is that an underage person can falsly claim to be 18 or whatever (and there’s plenty of 14 - 16 year olds who can pull that off). So. When you were 20, did you demand proof of age before touching some one? probably not. I sure didn’t and no one asked me for it either. But, that’s the only way you can protect yourself from a C/M charge. So, next time, try answering the question posted. Also, again, it would be helpful, since you continue to make statements contrary to what I’ve posted (and supported), if you would add a link to support your claim that “molesters don’t think they’ve done anything wrong and can’t be treated and will always molest again”.

No, I don’t ask for proof, but I don’t touch people where you shouldn’t. The issue of age is a tricky one. On a recent Montel show, a guy who got a 12 year pregnant claimed she was at fault cause she “dressed older.” Montel pointed out that he didn’t care how old she dressed, she couldn’t force him to do anything. And also that, if it had been his 12 year old, he would be in prison for killing the molester.

I guess if a 14 year old dresses and says she’s 18, or if a child molester claims she did, it’s okay to have sex with her. And no molester who gets caught ever lies about not knowing her age or the incident.

Esprix, If I’m understanding you correctly, you view Megan’s Law as not just harmful in and of itself, but more of a “slippery slope.” I can empathize with your viewpoint. Many homosexuals, in the past and now, have been untruthfully labeled as child molesters. This is unfair. Just as unfair as mislabeling a particular home as the residence of a child molester in a registrar or burning down the house of someone accused of having molested.

But what exactly is the slippery slope? If you were to go under the assumption that Megan’s Laws were enacted in all 50 states, what do you conclude to be the next step? Registering homosexuals? Registering DUIs? Registering spousal abusers? Registering those who wear white after labor day? What is it that scares you and how likely do you feel that that particular law will be enacted?

Or is Megan’s Law itself a problem? Wring seems to think it is. He’s certainly opened my eyes to problems within it, but I’m not sure if they’re enough to warrant repealing the law. I, for one, don’t believe that it’s cruel and unusual punishment. Embarrassing? Probably. Compare that to the suffering of the kid and I don’t see the problem. The retroactive punishment is most likely unconstitutional, but it will remain legal until someone challenges it in a court of law.

Wring, as I said earlier, I think that any law in a vacuum will never solve all problems, but should at least solve what it’s set out to do. I think people are fools if they believe the Brady Bill will stop gun crimes. I think people are fools if they believe that there’s no more pollution because the EPA enacted emission standards on cars. I think people are fools if they think kids will suddenly stop smoking because billboards can’t be placed near schools. And I think people are fools if they think their children are safe because they know where one or two child molesters live. But it’s a start.

I think that Megan’s Laws work for the purpose to which they were intended. If I was a parent, I wouldn’t be lulled into a false sense of security merely because I now knew that a molester lived two blocks down on the left. If anything, it would help me keep my guard up.

Annie-Xmas I think wring is saying that, to protect yourself from accidently molesting a child through statutory rape, you should always check ID of those you believe are borderline. True child molesters don’t care about the age and yes, they probably will lie.

It might stop there, or it might not. Who’s to say the language of a “sex offender” wouldn’t be broadened at some point to, say, people convicted of committing sodomy (still a crime in quite a few states)? Or adultery? IIRC, “sexual deviants” was one of the first groups to be labelled by the Nazis. Yes, the people directly impacted by Megan’s Law are, indeed, convicted criminals, but I think this “scarlet letter” tramples on some basic rights even an ex-convict deserves.

As I said, I’m all for probation/regular check-ins, therapy, etc., so I don’t think these laws should be repealed, but rather changed somewhat.

Again, I think we’re all in agreement that these crimes must be punished, but I simply don’t think this is the way to do it (and instances of mob justice, vigilanteism and mistakes being made are not isolated). Call me a bleeding-heart liberal - I’ve been called worse. But for as much as I know molested children need protection, our basic freedoms do as well.

(All of the above, of course, is just MHO.)

Esprix