What’s the deal with magneto-therapy? I got this brochure in the mail, trying to sell me magnetised funnels, magnetised filters, magnetised earrings, etc.
They claim these things can do everything from purifying water to curing diabetes. Sounds like a whole load of BS to me.
What’s up?
As far as I know the only evidence that magnets help anything is when minute amounts of iron filings are put in medicine. Then doctors take a magnet and draw the medicine to site of the body where it is needed. Other than that IMHO that what you got a brochure is just a placebo.
See Randi’s latest crusade against such trash here
Cecil Adams on Can magnets alleviate pain?
[sub]*fixed URL *[/sub]
Expensive magnetic bracelets, laundry balls, crystals… man, I’m in the wrong business.
Just an advance warning: Any links to sites selling magnetic therapy devices will be deleted with extreme prejudice. Most regular Dopers know what I’m talking about here, and newbies, take my word on it.
Hi all, I, too, am wondering about magnets for pain relief/therapy. My thoughts on it is that blood (hemoglobin?) has a high iron content, therefore blood flow should increase to the area of the magnet. Reasonable?
JMA
Nope. Biological iron, such is as in hemoglobin, is not magnetic. Magnets are helpful in Magnetic Resonance Imaging scanning (MRI) but virtually everything else is pure hokum, as unka Cecil and others have pointed out.
QtM, MD
Not so. Pardon me because I am “relatively” new to the SDMB. But Cecil and others are not correct. At best One can say that science does’nt know (or cannot measure) the effect of magnetic field on living things.
I used to believe that magnetic fields don’t effect living organisms (magnetic bacteria etc. excluded) when I had my big surprise while visiting the NHMFL (National High Magnetic Field Lab) at Tallahassee, Florida. I saw for myself that plants grew considerably faster in magnetic fields. In my basic biology courses I have never read about any magneto tactic movements.
Coming back to the effect of magnetic field on blood - here is a reference from the guys working at that lab - http://biomag.eng.fsu.edu/biomag2.html. Quote from the article - “The experimental results showed an increase in the erythrocyte osmotic fragility when exposed to 0.15 tesla magnetic field.”
Here’s another quote - “The blood flow in a tube was shown to slow down by 25% when the applied magnetic field reaches 10 tesla.” Read more at - http://biomag.eng.fsu.edu/biomag3.html.
Magnetic fields effect humans in other ways too - Read - Magnetically enhanced Cancer Treatment - http://biomag.eng.fsu.edu/biomag.html. Quote from the article - variety of HSP genes (heat shock protein genes) are believed to play an important role in the sequencing of the p53 gene. Research has shown that HSP70 gene activation is enhanced considerably in the presence of steady magnetic fields.
Magnetic field effects plants too and is being researched by NASA to grow plants in space. Read - http://biomag.eng.fsu.edu/magbot.html.
And of course, I always thought that migratory birds used magnetic fields to navigate the oceans of the world.
So while I am not claiming that tieing small magnets to your body can make you healthier, It is not entirely impossible that magnets have beneficial (or maybe bad) effects on humans. What is that extent and to what effect is yet undetermined by science. But we are indeed effected by magnetic fields !!
Its like science never being able to make a small enough intelligent aircraft which the humblest insect perfected at being centuries back.
If Cecil or anyone else wants they can call up the above referenced lab and find out for themselves :).
Here’s Quackwatch’s take on magnet therapy.
Emphasis added.
Well, thanks for the cites, andy but they’re a bit extra-topical. The OP was questioning whether there was validity to the health claims made by the proponents of magnet therapy, not whether or not magnetic fields can have an effect on organisms. Of course they can, else MRI would be ineffective.
Note also that the research lab specializes in “high magnetic fields”, operating with phenomenal amount of energy. Focus enough energy in one place, and it can’t help but change it’s environment no matter what form it’s in. Focus too much energy in one spot, and you end up with a kugelblitz, the energy equivalent of a black hole. Drop that on a patient, you’ll see an effect!
Here’s a table of magnet strengths. A 10 Tesla field is not something that most people will ever experience in their lifetime, much less wear on their wrists.
The National High Magnetic Field Laboratory looks like a fine place to play with exotic hardware. 
By see you mean measure, I guess. Yes I certainly agree that there is nothing obviously measureable for small magnets, but it does’nt mean it is non-existent. And i’ve seen experiments on blood with very small magnets too. 0.15 tesla is not that strong a field.
My post, if you would have read correctly, was to the fact that someone said blood is unaffected by magnetic fields to do any change to its biological properties.
But think about it, if nerve cells communicate with electrical impulses won’t a magnetic field have an effect ? (I am merely hypothesizing, I have no data to prove or disprove it). Also, the magnetic field need not be strong as the migratory birds can navigate with the earth’s “weak” magnetic field. If a dead frog’s muscle twitches with the application of an electric field, why won’t nerve cells carrying electric pulses be effected by magnetic fields ?
Besides when it comes to the nervous, scientists draw an “intellectually qualified” blank. Science has not proven or disproven the effects of magnetic field on “healing”. So meanwhile, while I do not believe in magneto therapy, I would’nt say someone who did was completely wrong.
Well, then read the post and my response correctly. jaudrits asked if magnets wouldn’t draw the iron in blood towards the magnet. I said no, as biologic iron is non-magnetic. Your cite indicated that blood flow in a tube slowed down by 25% in a 10 tesla magnetic field. How does this indicate that I am wrong?
Well, I was trained as a medical scientist. I would say that it’s up to the individual making the assertion that magneto therapy works to prove their point. With studies specific to the point they raise. And the point raised here was not “do magnets have effects on living organisms” as you seem to think, but “What’s the deal with magneto-therapy? They claim these things can do everything from purifying water to curing diabetes”.
And BTW, you state that “Cecil is not correct” as regards his column on magnets and their ability to relieve pain. Please indicate just where you think he is incorrect, and provide cites supporting your assertion specifically. This is GQ after all, not IMHO.
Now you’ve got me curious. Was Cecil traumatized by a magnet in his youth? Even a link to some obviously goofy site as an example will be deleted?
I know about the rule of no links directly to nude images, but to magnets? Or os this something more generic, like no links to any type of wacky, fraudulent products?
Chronos is referring to a particular web site that, I believe, we had as one of our Weird Earls. Apparently if someone posts a link on, say, our board linking to their page they will receive a free piece of junk if enough people click on the link. This board was spammed by jerks from over there. We don’t want that to happen again.
Let’s try to remember that we’re here to fight ignorance, not to promote junk.
DrMatrix - General Questions Moderator
This is the exact kind of claptrap that quacks use to lend an air of validity to their claims. Cite a peripheral effect to give the impression that there might be something to their goofy theory. It’s a smokescreen to obscure the fact that they have no evidence to validate their claim.
As Dr Quadgop said, if somebody makes a claim for the therapeutic value of their favorite bit of quackery, it’s up to the claimant to provide proof. “It might work” or “my theory sounds plausible to me” is not sufficient reason for a reasonable person to dump their hard-earned cash on a questionable cure. Not to mention that the sucker - I mean patient - is wasting time on quackery, time which might be better spent undergoing effective, science-based therapies.
Not true. See the Quackwatch link I posted above. Some effects are proven, some need further study and some - because of the total lack of observed therapeutic effect in properly conducted studies - are disproven.
andy_fl
If it can’t be measured, then there is no observable health benefit, because an observable health benefit is a measurable phenomenon. Your own claim that science can’t measure it precludes it having an observable health benefit.
You then go on to cite claims that there are in fact scientific observations of the effects of magnetism on certain biological systems, invalidating your own claim altogether.
Notice that this is a very different phenomenon than the ones thought to explain how magnets could have medical benefits in humans. Citing this does not constitute evidence that magnets can have medically useful effects on humans. It’s just not relevant.
Given the lack of observed evidence coupled with the lack of a plausible explanation why they should work, it is reasonable to dismiss the idea until actual evidence arises. Notice that the sites you have brought up offer evidence of entirely different claims.
The problem is that science hasn’t found any effect worth noting. It’s not a matter of what the extent is, it’s that there doesn’t appear to be an observable effect at all.
No, it isn’t. Or, more to the point, if you have a relevant connection by which this is relevant, you must make an argument, showing clearly why you think this point follows.
But it does mean we have no good reason to believe that it exists. And having no good reason to believe it exists, we have good reason to denounce the claims that it exists, not only on the ground that such claims should be proven before they are touted, but also because the magnetic therapy purveyors are taking money from people in exchange for no demonstrable benefit. Many of these people are desperately poor, and attempt to use the stuff as an alternative to medicine.
A little explanation will clear this up. The nervous system is not made up of wires of metal, such as you would use to collect an electric current from a moving magnetic field. In metal, electrons bond loosely with molecules, and can flow freely in response to a moving magnetic field. Notice that even at that it’s not always easy to achieve this effect even in metal wires, which is why we use coils, and iron cores and the likes, to help maximize the efficiency with which the effect operates. But nerves don’t transmit a signal by a free flow of electrons like a wire. They create a chain reaction of electrical potential differences through charged ions, which do not flow freely up the chain of nerve cells, but instead cause a charge potential difference in the ions of the next cell.
Actually, scientists have a hell of a lot to say about it, and my explanation why a magnet doesn’t affect the flow of an electrical charge in nerves the way it does in wires is just the skin on the cocoa – and just that little bit of knowledge throws the whole magneto-therapy notion is high doubt.
In fact, someone who made such a claim would not only be wrong, but would also be a fraud, or defrauded, depending on which way the money is flowing.
As a related note, I read somewhere that people were considering magnets as a type of replacement for electroshock therapy. Could someone fill me in on how accurate this is, if at all?
** A few remarks to start with :
1> I have never stated that tieing magnets to your body will makes any measureable changes.
2> I have stated that magnetic fields do have effect on human cells and have given cites for the same. And am providing more cites.
3> I do not tie magnets to my body but am fine with people doing so. My argument is the same given in one of Asimov’s (Black Widower’s) episode I remember where the subject justified his selling of four leaf clovers (fake clovers) to people who want it.
4>I don’t believe it is a fraud if the seller of it tells people that magneto therapy is believed to be heal but there is no medical evidence to prove it (as long as it does’nt harm them). Just like people who say - Jesus Saves do so without any evidence.**
Not necessary. Everything observable is not measureable when it comes to humans or other living things. An example is psychoanalysis which had “measureable” benifits during its hayday but now is less popular (http://www.npr.org/programs/death/readings/essays/cass.html). Science can measure objective things and often it is a challenge to quantify subjective things to objective. Another example will be Intelligence, it is observable but not objectively measureable. The measures of IQ are hotly debated even today.
Off the topic things which are not observable consequently not measureable are also “accepted” in science. An example will be SUTs (Super Unification Theories) or even String theories which if I recollect requires Accelerators the size of the solar system.
There is no invalidation, if you read carefully. The bilogical systems I cited were part of the human system but not the complete system. (Blood Cells, etc.)
I have no clue when you say - “ones thought to explain”. If blood flow can be regulated in a tube using a magnetic field - http://biomag.eng.fsu.edu/biomag3.html, how can you say it is not relevant ?
My cite on birds using magnetic fields to navigate illustrated the cluelessness on the part of science to measure bio - magnetisms interaction. I consider it relevant from that point of view.
“entirely different claims” from what ? What is it different from ? If you want more cites - lookup - http://users.med.auth.gr/~karanik/english/articles/emf9.html.
Agreed. But i’ll change observable to measureable. Besides there are measureable effects - “http://users.med.auth.gr/~karanik/english/articles/emf9.html”. But some claim there are no measureable effects - Barker AT (1994) Electricity, magnetism and the body: some uses and abuses. J R Soc Health Apr;114(2):91-97 - “EM therapies are discussed in the light of the disappointing lack of objective evidence to support claims for their effectiveness”
My point was science does’nt understand everything. And I illustrated it with an insect. With all the advancement in science we are still not able to make something the size of the insect which can fly, navigate and have intelligence.
You have every right to denounce it just like I do. “magnetic therapy purveyors are taking money from people in exchange for no demonstrable benefit” - agreed but so are bottled water sellers, charm sellers, health food sellers, etc. etc…
http://www.tassie.net.au/emfacts/forum/1_3ezine2.html. Check that out and also - http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/scienceshack/articles/questions/q_ou24.shtml. Note that the signal transfer in the neurons and dendrons are as you describe, but the synaptic cleft is more complex. More specifically the neutrotransmitters (and the destroyers) may be effected by magnetic fields.
“MEG is based on the fact that the time-varying magnetic fields produced by current flow in neurons are capable of inducing currents in detection coils placed outside the head.” Quote from www.ai.mit.edu/projects/cbcl/ courses/course9.63/Lct20.DOC.
Scientists have a lot to say - Agreed. But there are many who say yes and many say no. http://users.med.auth.gr/~karanik/english/articles/emf9.html.
Did anyone file fraud lawsuits against the shrinks who made people tell their false childhood memories ?? Is bottled water a fraud ? I don’t know. I’ll leave to the individual to decide provided all the data is available to the individual :).