I was wondering if people who get MRIs notice a decrease in pain during the test. I guess the magnets actually have to be in contact with the person’s skin to be effective…
I have worked on MRIs for about 15 years and as part of my job have had over 100 MRI exams performed on me. As part of my work, I have been around and in magnets (both steady field and alternating fields of various frequencies) for hundreds of hours.
I have never noticed any change in bodily pains after an examination.
The people who sell the magnets for alleviation of pain sell them in various sizes and strengths and also claim that the larger and more powerful ones (which cost more) can give the same results in shorter treatment periods.
A funny thing is that the magnet advocates disagree whether the magnetic south pole should be close to the body, the North pole, or it does not matter.
Magnetism is not “insulated” by air. The field does fall off quite rapidly as one moves farther away from the magnet, however. The magnetic fields that a modern high-end system creates are orders of magnitude higher than the refrigerator magnets that these guys sell. And they also subject the entire body to the field, not just a cubic inch or so.
Very, very extreme magnetic fields, more than 10 times higher than an MRI, CAN have some effects on some living tissues, so the homeotherapy crowd can take that and run with it, but I’m not buying it.
The placebo effect is probably the most potent medicine that we know of. If you could bottle that, you’d really have something. The Japanese “doctor” might just as well be describing a “paper clip deficiency” and selling you paper clips.
Of course, my wife claims that I have the strength of ten men when in bed. But I don’t attribute that to the magnets.
I’m very upset about this column, because in university I did a study on magnets and pain, and my team and I found that, absolutely and without question, magnets COULD reduce pain if used properly.
After attaching magnets to the body failed to produce measurable results, we decided to give the old homeopathic theory of water molecule “memory” a try. We introduced magnets into containers of water for periods of sixty minutes and then had pain sufferers drink the water (Without swallowing the magnets, of course We found no conclusive results. Thinking that perhaps distilled water was not the right vehicle, we also tried milk, coffee, and orange juice, all without success.
Then, however, we tried whiskey. Incredibly, the power of the magnets seemed to be transferred through the whiskey! After consuming 3 fluid ounces of whiskey, 54% of subjects reported a noticeable decrease in pain. After 6 fluid ounces the percentage was up to 90%, and after 10 fluid ounces, 68% reported no pain at all and 32% were unconscious, proving that magnets are not only an effective analgesic but a good sleep aid. The magnets also seemed to improve dancing abilities, and 57% of subjects reported that the other subjects’ physical appearances improved as the experiment progressed.
However, we found that the magnet/whiskey therapy often resulted in vomiting, which suggests that we must be very careful in experiments of this kind.
We also had favourable results with scotch, rum, rye, vodka, screech, tequila, and windshield wiper fluid, although the wiper fluid had the effect of making some of the subjects go blind. Results with beer were less effective; larger volumes of beer are needed to produce the same effect as vodka or scotch. Wine was somewhere between liquor and beer in efficacy.
Our conclusion was that the healing power of magnets can be transferred through the medium of alchohol molecules.
Holy Crap, RickJay…you just gave me my laughter dose of the day. Thanks! 
** RickJay:**
You sir, are now officially my hero!
Ugly
I’m risking ridicule here, I know, but I believe magnets do work for me. Specifically, I have carpal tunnel syndrome and an aversion to surgery. I got a copper bracelet with magnets in the kilo-gauss range. The first time I wore it, after about 10 minutes, I knew something was definitely going on. I had a weird feeling in my wrist. A very strong tingling sensation, reminding me that I had the thing on my wrist.
My therapy for carpal tunnel includes the copper & magnet bracelet along with exercises to work the muscles that don’t get used repetitively, and ibuprofen to reduce the swelling.
Copper bracelets are used to treat arthritis. The story on that is that we may have a deficiency of copper in our diets since we stopped using copper pots & pans, which we quit when it was discovered that copper combines with tomatoes to create a toxin.
How do magnets affect your health? I suggest that blood contains iron, and therefore is magnetic, and the magnets could draw blood to the area where it is needed for healing. To this, people reply rather emphatically that blood is not magnetic. Maybe only slightly, like maybe the cells might tend to align themselves with the magnetic field? Small effects are often overlooked.
And how about nerve impulses - electric, right? Magnets certainly have an effect on electric currents - hold one up to your color TV when it’s on. Isn’t that pretty? Maybe the magnet similarly interferes with the current flowing through your nerves, perhaps diverting the sensation of pain.
These theories are obviously not ready for JAMA.
Anyway, I have successfully avoided surgery, so I believe. Placebo, maybe. Scoff if you like.
P.S. Keep the magnets away from your wristwatch and magnetic memory storage devices (e.g. floppy disks), and you can really screw up your TV if you’re not careful.
here’s what i know… pain is recieved in the brain from nerves,… nerves work by the transfer of electrons through nerve cells… magnets (depending on polarity) attract or repel electrons…
it would seem to me, that a magnet, when placed around an active nerve, would hinder electron trasfer, … therefore affecting the transfer of pain,…
ARGH! Nerve impulses are NOT electric. They are entirely chemical in nature.
(CAPS mine d)
There is your real reason why the magnets work. Your fear of going under the knife. Your subconcious wants those magnets to work.
How we feel pain is a very relative thing. Have you ever noticed that when you’re distracted enough you can forget the pain. The mind is an amazing thing.
BUT, if your mind is masking the pain it is not curing the cause. Make sure that you see your doc regularly for your carpal tunnel.
d
Welcome to the SDMB, and thank you for posting your comment.
Please include a link to Cecil’s column if it’s on the straight dope web site.
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Can magnets alleviate pain? (18-Jun-1999)
moderator, «Comments on Cecil’s Columns»
Interestingly, the physics colloquium here last Friday (the 16th) was on the history of man’s understanding of magnetism, and it seems that the first debunking of magnets’ ability to alleiviate pain was in 1600. The crackpots have got some catching up to do here, methinks…
As for Wendolynne’s ideas concerning a mechaninism, it should be noted that blood is, indeed, magnetic… Unfortunately, it’s actually diamagnetic, due to the water content, rather than ferromagnetic like iron. What this means is that blood will actually be slightly repelled by a magnet. Well, OK, maybe repelling the blood is what’s good for the wound… Just how strong an effect is this? Try putting a strong household magnet (such as might be found in such a bracelet) near a trickle of water… See any effect? You could get a much larger effect on circulation by shaking your arm about a bit, or keeping it elevated.
Nerve impulses are, indeed, partly electrical in nature (although carried by large ions, rather than by electrons), but a magnet will neither attract nor repell a charge. What it’ll do is attempt to bend the path of a charge. Since the currents are pretty much restricted to the paths of the nerves, what you’ll get is a sort of very weak Hall effect, causing a slight voltage difference between one side of the nerve and the other. IANAN, but I don’t think that such a small voltage difference would have any effect on pain sensitivity: I would wager that shuffling your feet on the carpet would produce much greater voltage differences.
Just to throw out another possibility, by the way: The bracelet itself might have some theraputic value (positive or negative) by virtue of its shape, regardless of material or magnetism. If it’s too tight, for instance, that’ll certainly effect your circulation, and might cause the tingling sensation described.
I’ve read a book by the proponents. They say that a permanent magnet is different than an electromagnet, which is what MRI uses. They say that electromagnets have no effect.
I’ve used magnets to try to alleviate pain. Sometimes I feel a bit better, sometimes not.
Is it a placebo effect? Maybe and probably, but I really don’t mind if it is a placebo as long as I feel better.
Wendolynne, the talk here has been about magnets, but FYI, copper bracelets are also universally regarded as quackery.
Anyone who says that the magnetic field from a permanent magnet is different from that from an electromagnet is showing his ignorance. Some electromagnets might be alternating (they’re driven by AC current), but an MRI uses a non-alternating field.
I’d like to add something. I have tried magnets to reduce headache pain and haven’t really found much relief, however, some friends have used the same magnets and had success.
Check out http://www.imnpain.com/holcomb.html to see an article on Dr. Robert Holcomb. He’s a doctor at Vanderbilt University and has been studying pain and magnetic therapy for over 10 years. He has a couple of degrees and good credentials as a “real” doctor…
It was his magnets that my friends and I used. Who knows if it’s a placebo effect or not? I WISH they worked, but I’m still not convinced, but it’s not only “Quacks” that advocate magnetic therapy.
Well.
I think there is some merit for using pressure point therapy- “seasickness bands” seem to work pretty well for some people. Perhaps magnets/bracelets/whatever simulate this? Perhaps the magnet holders/braces/shoe arches are what really help, not the magnets themselves. Perhaps you hold your hands differently when you wear the bracelets.
However, there is something different when you talk about an electric field. Static magnets really don’t do anything. But slap some electrodes on yourself, and give 'em some A/C juice, and you can sort of numb the nerves in the area (along with causing the muscles to contract and release many times), and THIS CAN help with chronic pain. I think people confuse magnets and electric stimulation sometimes.
I was very, very amused to read that some of the quacks claim that the magnetic field from electromagnets is different than with static magnets. Talk about a basic total non-understanding of physics. What garbage. It is almost, but not as bad, as “clean air” ionizers that the quacks here (but not in Canada! Illegal now!) sell. They are harmful due to ozone production- magnets seem to be a relatively harmless fad.
-J
Good News: The poster alluding to the good Dr. Holcomb at Vanderbilt University is correct. He has succeeded in creating extremely effective magnets for pain therapy, which most definitely can and do work. That the effects are attributable only to the placebo effect has not been demonstrated by double-blind, controlled studies.
These magnets, called Magnabloc, deliver much higher combined Gauss and Gradient than any other available on the market. They are very inexpensive compared to the cost of prescription pain medications and the toll they take on the body over the years, are guaranteed to work, and have no side effects whatever. They are available exclusively from registered Quixtar.com independent representatives. See refereed journal articles at http://www.magnabloc.com/us/reference/reading.asp .
The provider of the magnets makes no claim to special knowledge as to precisely HOW the intense quadripolar magnetic field interrupts the nerve’s ability to transmit pain signals to the brain (for that is still a matter of some scientific speculation and disagreement), only that it does so. This is qualitatively similar to the pain-reducing effects of joint adjustments by chiropractic physicians in that no consensus exists as to why it works, only that it does so. Part of the reason is certainly the placebo effect. (Incidentally, chiropractic was developed in 1895 by a man named Palmer, who was also a magnetic healer.)
Any good medical physician will also readily admit that a vast percentage of his patients get what benefits they get from his care due to the placebo effect. We don’t care. Our raison d’etre is getting sick people well. As long as that end is achieved, our job is done.
I have found that patients in mild to moderate pain are grateful for the relief provided by Magnabloc magnets and for not having to take as many pain medications, thus improving their lives in two ways at once.
jefflibbey, a person can be a degreed professional with credentials and still be a quack. I’m not saying whether Dr. Holcomb is a quack or not, I’m pointing out that the two are not mutually exclusive.
Here’s a quote from Quackwatch on terminology:
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/quackdef.html
Originally posted by DPWhite
CurtC said:
True, but notice DPWhite didn’t say the fields were different, he (?) said the effects were different from the magnets. Here’s an article from The Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine. http://www.hcrc.org/contrib/ramey/magnet.html This article is discussing how the evidence for health effects from magnets is not conclusive and absent in many cases, but does state there’s a difference in permanent magnets vs. electromagnets.
hyjyljyj, I took a look at the site you listed. For those interested, here is a link that includes the actual articles online, in case you care to read through them.
http://www.imnpain.com/studies.html
First off, I’m a little worried about the journals in question. The journals listed that have published are Environmental Medicine and Bioelectromagnetics. Now I by no means am a doctor and do not have any clue about the quality of these as refereed journals, but they do appear suspicious to me in that they seem awfully specific for a field that is not really established. An article in JAMA or some other well-known, broad medical field journal would be more convincing than one in Abstracts, 15th Annual Meeting of the Bioelectromagnetics. Now I realize that’s not a very strong objection given that I can’t say one way or the other what the quality of the journals is, but it is a consideration.
I would like to point out what Quackwatch has to say on magnetic therapies.
http://www.quackwatch.com/04ConsumerEducation/QA/magnet.html
The article concludes:
It includes references, plus a link to this article (previously mentioned by me)
Magnetic and Electromagnetic Therapy, By David W. Ramey, DVM, http://www.hcrc.org/contrib/ramey/magnet.html . It includes a long list of references.
hyjyljyj said:
That is extremely overstating the results. I read the article in question, and even it points out weaknesses in the study because it was a pilot study, not a full-fledged test.
Your statement about the placebo is confusing, but I take it to mean that the effects of the study seemed to provide evidence above the placebo effect control group. That is a valid statement, based on my cursory reading of the paper. (I have not evaluated the study to determine if the methodology was sound or if the analysis is agreeable.)
Your next paragraph reads more like an advertisment than a description.
Then there’s this sentence:
Right, the manufacturer claims it works. That’s not proof it does work.
And then this:
I really hope you don’t mean to be comparing magnet therapy to chiropracty - that is a field based on quackery and laden with all sorts of extreme and dangerous practices. However, there is some limited accepted use of back and spine adjustments to reduce pain. If that is all you meant, then I suppose the comparison is not as objectionable. However, in that case it is important to point out that the relief attributed to chiropracty is comparable to relief obtained by stretching and physical exercise.
Your next paragraph implies you are a medical doctor. If that is so, then perhaps you can point out where I am missing information.
You make several errors of both commission and omission all of which I unfortuantely do not have the requisite time to address here. Here are a few:
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“Chiropracty” is not a word. The noun and adjective forms are both “chiropractic” (refer to my post for usage).
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Studies saying magnets do not work are different from patients reporting they do work and getting relief. I have personally received pain relief from the Magna Bloc magnets also, as have my aging parents. This is called empirical or clinical data, which is to be distinguised from experimental data. We doctors still use it nonetheless. As a practical matter, the only way one can “prove” these magnets work or not is by using them. If they work, fine. If they don’t in a given patient, then other, more invasive modalities are indicated. Everything doesn’t work on every patient or in every case, even so-called proven pharmaceutical therapies.
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Your unbacked statement that chiropractic “…is a field based on quackery and laden with all sorts of extreme and dangerous practices” is a view not shared by the US Olympic Committee, Olympic teams of many nations, state licensing boards in all 50 states and the District of Columbia and in many nations of the world, nearly all professional sports franchises, boxing federations and the VA, all of whom endorse or utilize chiropractic physicians to one extent or another. They must know something you don’t. Your view is rather an outmoded and discredited view which has also been publicly retracted by the AMA, after years of covertly attempting to destroy the chiropractic profession and obviously failing to do so. You’re a little out of date there, and we wouldn’t want to accidentally mislead any of the readers on this forum.
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That the same effects as chiropractors produce can be achieved through simple exercise and stretching is also a disproven and irresponsible statement being made not by a licensed practitioner of any healing arts, but by a layperson without proper training or education upon which to found such an assertion. It it were true, major league sports teams would not pay to have doctors of chiropractic on staff; they would simply have their athletes stretch and exercise.
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Your assumption that I am a medical doctor is another which is incorrect. Re-reading the paragraph in question, I can see that it was (unintentionally) ambiguous, and could have been read either way. I apologize for any confusion. As you have no doubt astutely ascertained by this point, I am a chiropractor (also called doctor of chiropractic, D.C., or chiropractic physician, so that you may use the correct and legal terms from now on).
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Unproven, extreme and dangerous therapies are indeed employed by some chiropractors and medical doctors alike, sadly more often than many would like to admit. On this point there can be little dispute. However, they are in the minority, and most of us doctors of both disciplines who have been charged with getting sick people well are discharging those duties ethically and honestly, to the best of our abilities, including the use of modalities where the jury is still out on exactly WHY they work, including quadripolar magnets. It is worth noting that the documented risk of a patient’s dying due to any chiropractic treatment or malpractice is vanishingly minute in the world literature, compared with medical doctors and surgeons (thousands of instances annually). It is acknowledged that the two groups are not generally treating the same patients with the same ills.
BTW, it bears mention that the magnets in question are constructed in such a way as to produce a magnetic field which is many times stronger than ordinary refrigerator magnets and most magnets sold as therapeutic ones, which are useless.
I know “chiropracty” is not the conventional use. It is a quirk of mine. I find myself in a conundrum of using the conventional word “chiropractic” and being stuck in a linguistic disjoint for seeing an adjective word form used as a noun, or break convention and use my own twist to the word. It is, admittedly, a weak point when I don’t use the conventional form.
Thank you for clarifying that you are a doctor of chiropractic, and not a doctor of medicine.
I’ll stand by my statement equating the electric field from a permanent magnet to that of an MRI. The article you refer to talks about alternating or pulsed electromagnets, not the static kind found in permanent magnets or MRI electromagnets (the field is created by DC current in a coil).
hyjyljyj, patients reporting that MagnaBloc magnets provide relief is called anecdotal evidence. And it’s particularly unconvincing when not in a controlled, blind or double-blind study. The deal is that we know quite a bit about biochemistry, and we can’t come up with any reasons why we would expect static magnetic fields to have any effect. So is there any empirical evidence? Well, there’s the one Baylor study, which has not been replicated, and which contradicts other studies that found no effect. So believing in their effectiveness requires quite a leap of faith.
And you must be joking, equating the quackery found in general traditional medicine with that in chiropractic. Chiropractic was founded on completely discredited principles, blaming all disease on something called “subluxations.” Many chiropractors still beleive this and recommend chiropractic for things like children’s ear infections. Irishman’s statement that it “is a field based on quackery and laden with all sorts of extreme and dangerous practices” is absolutely correct, no matter what the NFL says.