The Latin mass I attended was at the Brompton Oratory in London. It was a High Mass, so they had all the singing and incense, and with the Latin, it just made it incredibly beautiful. So on the aesthetic level, I can understand the value of the Latin mass.
Gibson’s promotion of a pre-Vatican Council II style of Catholicism, on the other hand, is quite a different story. Yes, his feelings are more political than they are aesthetic.
I hadn’t heard about his disagreement with the Pope re: Iraq. I have to say, I disagree with the Pope on a lot of stuff (and with the Catholic faith as a whole, but that has to do with some basic problems that I have with the whole idea of God and religion). However, at least he appears to be fairly consistent in defending what he defines as human life, whether it be in cases of abortion, capital punishment, or war.
You know, this is going to sound weird, but I seem to remember seeing such a show about the Passion drama before, on television. I was channel surfing and came across what looked at first glance like some sort of costume drama, but the folks seemed to be speaking gibberish(to my ears.) Then some characters dressed as Romans were speaking what was recognizably Latin. Then I figured it out, based on the action, that each character was speaking their own “native tongue” and that the action was the Passion story. I recall one scene from after Jesus resurrection, His assumption into Heaven. Kind of intriguing, because it was shown from two viewpoints, those who were watching Him rise up, and those who were waiting for Him in Heaven. He stepped up through a glowing cloud, and one of the people there waiting, smiling, was the thief who spoke up for Him from one of the other crosses.
I don’t recall what channel this was on, but it was several years ago. Five or six maybe? It may(but don’t quote me on this) have been produced or sponsored by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints(Mormons). Now that I’ve read this thread I tried searching for it on IMDB, but have come up dry so far.
John XXIII was like, the Ultimate Pope. He was the SuperPope.
MAJOR fighter for social justice. Very accessible, down to earth guy. Really, really cool.
My guess is that those who called for Jesus to be crucified were kinda like the Jerry Falwells and Jack Chicks of Judaism back then. The holier than thou jerks. Not the majority.
Skopo, you’re right on the money about the Latin Mass – I was an altar boy back in the 70s, and I served the occasional Latin Mass, usually on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception. It wasn’t too hard to follow, and I suspect I had to follow it somewhat more closely than you did
Reading this thread, I’m reminded of Beyond Blunderdome, the Simpsons episode in which Homer and Mel re-make Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. One wonders if there’s a real-life Homer Simpson inspiring this movie, which could end what’s left of Mel’s career.
I’m guessing that this movie will either win a butt load of awards or break Gibson’s career.
I’ve always tried to keep the actor’s work seperate from their private life shenanigan’s. But, with more info on Gibson coming to light, he is scaring me.
Either way, this is a ballsy move and I bet it will be cinematically beautiful to watch.
I bet he pulls a Henry VIII and makes himself leader of his own church.
I’m sure he has enough money to afford this, even if it makes no money. I don’t see a lot of audience for this thing beyond very religious Christians… as for everyone else, if he comes across as an anti-Semite, he could be asking for trouble.
And also Rome-Collaborators whose standing and livelihood depended on political toadying with the Roman-appointed officials and thus had a stake in getting rid of anyone with funny ideas about sources of authority. Very often in colonial/occupation situations you find the local quislings exceedingly eager to dig or make up “subversives” to deliver to their masters, to prove how necessary and loyal they are. You can imagine such a group “gaming” factions in the clergy to give the suppression of the rebel a veneer of “religious” legitimacy, and doing the same with local political powers such as the Herods. AND providing a convenient rent-a-mob for the show-trial.
To add to what JRD said:
The high priests of the temple at that time were all hand-picked and appointed by the Romans. They did not represent the views of the Jewish public at large and were, in fact, despised for their collaboration with the Romans.
Jesus was executed as a public menace by the Romans. They may have used Jewish collaborators to facilitate the arrest, but it was the Romans who wanted him dead, not the Jews.
[hijack]This thread tickles me to death merely because Jim Caviezel’s brother (Tim) tried to sell us a timeshare in Lake Tahoe. He was a super-nice guy and we nearly dropped $15,000 of money we didn’t have on one just based on his charisma alone. Scary! I hope he’s still there when we go back in July so I can say “dude, your brother thinks he’s Jesus!”[/hijack]
But that’s the sort of thing an America-hater like me would say.
(I guess…I was sorta woooooshed by that too, as usual.)
Well I’m old enough to say that I did a bit of altar boying back when the mass was still in Latin. We had these little cue cards and we had to read the responses. In those days the regular mass attendees did not make the responses to the priest-- only the altar boys. Imagine 3rd graders trying to read a foriegn language… And the amazing thing is that it never occured to any of us that we were mouthing words that we had no idea what they meant. I can still remember a lot of it, though.
As for the movie, it should be intersting. Has anyone ever seen the movie The Naked Prey? No subtitles for the African tribesmen and it worked out OK. Kind of made you know what it was like for the poor Anglo dude who was the “prey”. Also, IIRC, the original Man Called Horse did not subtitle the Lakota dialogue, although they did include a handy-dandy bilingual Indian captive to help out.
Ah-that makes perfect sense. I never meant the Jews were responsible-the Romans so obviously were-just that there were Pharisees who went along with it, because he pointed out their hypocrisy.
If you want a flavor of what the old Latin Mass was like right in the comfort of your own home, get an Anonymous 4 CD. I’m listening to one right now, 1000: A Mass for the End of Time. Heavenly.
