It’s easy to make broad assumptions based on your (alleged) personal experiences.
Unlike you, I know my limitations on the subject. I’m not an expert. I do, however, have enough personal experience to offer an educated opinion. And any expert (like you are claiming to be) know there are no absolutes. If there were, you’d throw every man who has hit his wife into jail before he beat her to a pulp, killed her, or anything else.
Since the jails are not filled with angry men who have taken a verbal or physical shot at their wives or girlfriends, I imagine it’s not as cut and dry as you seem to believe.
Reading Mighty_Girl’s post is a tragic story, but it does not convince me that staying is better than packing your kids up and leaving. If the guy was capable of killing her after she left, he was capable of killing her at any time.
And what, pray tell, did I say that indicates that in your opinion I have no idea what I’m talking about? After all, you’ve been to a couple of classes. Enlighten us. But use my posts, please. I have never said that 1) she deserved it, 2) she was to blame, 3) Mel’s behavior is acceptable. 4) She personally released the tapes.
What I did say is that asking when these tapes were made vs. when they were released is a legitimate question. If she continued a relationship with this nutjob for months after the recorded tirade at the beginning of this thread, I think an obvious question is why she didn’t leave him then and there. We aren’t talking about some woman with no job, 4 children, and no where to go. If you are lumping her in with the average person you’ve dealt with over the last 13 years, I question your ability to understand the dynamics of an individual case.
She clearly has money and she’s paying high priced attorneys to handle this. She clearly could afford to go someplace else, but has chosen to live at Mel’s house. That decision is enough for me to question her ability to protect her child from a direct threat of harm. And that’s what’s important here. The child. Staying in a house owned by the alleged batterer, who presumably has keys to the house is not the brightest choice to make, is it?
Jesus christ, Dio. You obviously have really big buttons for very good reason and they are getting pushed.
That doesn’t make everything an absolute truth that only you have the secret to. The subtext is inferred by the listener - that doesn’t mean it IS implied by the speaker/writer.
See, with this type of thing you are definitely singing loudly the depth of your ignorance on the subject. There’s nothing wrong with ignorance if you’re willing to learn from it. You won’t take the (alleged) word of anyone here who doesn’t agree with your interpretation or line of questioning, so why not do some reading about domestic violence from reputable sources that you don’t have to be a condescending snot to?
I have a feeling that nothing anyone says to you here will be anything that you will take into consideration because for some reason you see all of this as very adversarial. So do some research and find out just how many women (and men) who are abused stay for longer than you feel they should. Find out that the amount of money they do or don’t have doesn’t always make a difference.
Oh, please. I would contend that I have a much more open mind in this thread than you, Dio, or anyone else that thinks that Mel should be institutionalized and the problem is solved.
If you can find anywhere that I said that Oksana was a gold digger, or deserved this, let me know.
You are right about one thing. No one can say anything in this thread that will convince me that you, or anyone else is right. Not until someone links to a reputable source that gives us facts, not something that gives us some insight and allows for rampant speculation.
Have you noticed that you , Dio, and folks that are of similar beliefs are unbending, and unwilling to consider any other scenario than the one you’ve convinced yourself of? There is no open-mindedness on your part. You think you know what happened based on your knowledge of past events with other people. People that weren’t Mel and Oksana.
And what exactly am I supposed to educate myself on? That Mel’s actions are deplorable? I agree. That Mel seems to be out of control on that phone call? I agree. Does Mel seem to have anger issues? I agree. I’m not arguing with any of you. You are all trying to “educate” me and others about the dynamics of the abuser and abusee. Like you are the only ones who have seen it, lived it, or read about it that make you so much more qualified to judge it.
But if you for one minute try to tell me that the single most important duty a parent has is to provide a safe world for their child to grow up in, and that parent (mom or dad) fails at doing that, then I believe they have some responsibility for that. I’m not talking about someone who comes home one night and kills his wife. I’m talking about someone who makes a phone call like Mel’s, which is taped for some reason, and six months later, the whole world gets to hear it.
Why? Why are they being released now? And by who? There can’t me that many people who had access to those tapes, so it’s a legitimate question. If the police released the tapes, why would they? Someone is going to lose his/her job over something like that. Mel’s certainly not going to release them (assuming he has a copy), which leaves us with Oksana and/or her attorneys. Even with that, we still don’t know who actually did release the tapes, so pointing a finger right now is futile.
Unlike all of you, I readily admit my ignorance to this particular issue (Mel and Oksana). You cannot seem to admit the same. And the fact is, unless you are a personal friend, a member of the police force that has access to the records of this case and the recordings, you know as much as the rest of us do. Except you’ve read a book or two on domestic violence. Good for you. If you are a victim of DV, I’m truly sorry about that, but that doesn’t give you any more information about Mel and Oksana. And if you think you are somehow clairvoyant and know the answers to the questions that the courts will probably have to hash out, then you should sell your services to the Star, the Enquirer, or any other rag covering this story.
Can you tell me that these calls were more than one call, or are they just one phone call that has been cut up and released each day for some more bad Mel Gibson publicity? Either way, it doesn’t seem to me that she left him right after the recording(s) was/were made. Given that, are you telling me that she could not have left Mel because of the battered wife syndrome? She sounds pretty calm and controlled on those tapes. She doesn’t sound like she fears him. Take all that out, and she still has an obligation to get her child out of harms way. If she didn’t do it after the first phone call was over, asking why she didn’t seems to be something that an attorney would ask her in a court of law.
Finally, I don’t see any of this as adversarial. I don’t know you, nor do I have any negative feelings toward you. I don’t know Dio either. Hell, I don’t know anyone on this board. I’ve got nothing to prove. And if I’m proven wrong, I’m fine with that. I’m just not sure what it is that you think I’m wrong about or what you think we disagree about.
It’s hard to take a single other thing seriously that you have to say when you start out with such made up horseshit as this. Where have I said that Mel should be institutionalized? Quit fucking lying and it’ll go a long way to believing that you’re not just arguing for the sake of being an “I’m against the grain!” teenager. For real.
I never said you did, so what other BS do you have for me?
Convince you of what? My suggestion was that you should read about DOMESTIC VIOLENCE. I said nothing to you about proving anything about Mel and this woman. Nothing.
The very fact that you are questioning why a woman would stay months with a man who was violent illustrates that you know next to nothing about the cycle of domestic violence. Next to nothing. For that reason I suggested that you find some reputable sources that you’ll believe without your sneering contempt so you can educate yourself and not sound so ignorant on the topic.
I’m not going to do your research for you. Contact domestic violence prevention groups in your area, the library, your police department, the justice department’s website… do it yourself. Anything I pick for you to read will likely be met with more of your blah blah blah and I’m not doing the work for you.
What are you babbling about? Tell me, oh wise one, what are my beliefs that I’m so unbending about? Elaborate.
As I mentioned above, learn about DOMESTIC VIOLENCE. Your ignorance has to do with that subject. This particular scenario has only brought that to light.
Again, I have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about. I haven’t said shit about anything even close to this peachy little rant you’ve got going here.
Do you realize that your last sentence negates just about everything you said in the entire paragraph? Just wonderin. Also, you’re nuts if you think that she and her attorneys are the only plausible people who could have released these tapes. Maybe she did release them. I honestly don’t care at all who did because it doesn’t really change anything.
Do you see everyone who disagrees with you all as one person? Or maybe are you drinking? I haven’t pretended to know everything about this case so what are you talking about? I’m really starting to wonder if you’re just throwing whatever you can against the wall to see what sticks. If you’re going to rant at me or ask me questions, bring relevant questions to things that I have said.
I will admit to laughing at your mocking idea that people here are acting like they know more than you because they’ve “read a book or two” when you pretty much called a previous poster a liar when they shared with you information about over a DECADE of experience. You gave the old (alleged) bullshit and took nothing they said in, that was obvious. That’s also when I realized you’re just here to argue.
Do your own research. I don’t give a damn about the answers to your questions because I don’t care if it was one conversation or she had 10 tapes from 10 different days. Abuse is abuse and if she stayed a day, a week, or a month, or six months… he still abused her and is responsible for his actions. If you want those answers and the answers matter to you then by all means seek out the answers.
Oh no, she sounds calm and isn’t shivering and quivering with fear when he’s on the phone with her. We’ll just call you Perry Stinkymason, you’ve solved the case!
To be honest, I don’t especially care what you think about this situation. I just think it’s hilarious that no matter what anyone says or perspective they offer you still reject it (and admit here that you will continue to do so) so why the hell are you even arguing?
Well, we have something in common. I don’t care what you think about this situation either.
But you are convinced of your intellectual superiority on this subject. Others in this thread have declared her a gold-digger (and worse). You, however, refuse to believe that this is the case.
What if it turns out that Oksana is not only a gold digger, but she stayed with Mel and recorded all of his conversations with him to try to blackmail him. Is your answer like Dio’s, who said something along the lines of “so what? He deserved it!”. or would you think that what she did was not only wrong, but could have also put her child at unnecessary risk? Or is that impossible; only you, and others enlightened on the topic of DV would truly understand what she was doing.
You are ignorant of the background of this case. You are frothing at the brain, trying to insult me. You have no idea what I know or don’t know about DV, how I grew up, if I was exposed to DV or not, or anything else. You just know what YOU know.
If she takes a financial settlement, what would you think then?
I can question all day long why a woman would stay in an abusive relationship. If you are telling me that a victim of DV is drawn to her abuser like a magnet, and she’s powerless to escape tells me that you believe it could happen to anyone. Including someone like you, that already knows the warning signs and pitfalls of a DV relationship.
I don’t happen to subscribe to the theory that the victim is powerless. You do. And because of that difference, you believe you are completely right, and I am ignorant to the subject of DV. That’s about as close-minded as someone can get.
Again you come back with speculation and retardation. Why don’t you refer to things I’ve actually SAID in this thread instead of strawman after strawman?
I have no idea if she’s a gold digger, so why are you acting like I’m trying to prove that she’s not? Is this always how you discuss things? You make up points to argue? When did I say a victim is powerless? Do you even have any clue what things you’re railing against?
Frothing at the brain, huh? I will admit that I am confused because you make no sense. You try to lump people together and tell us what we all think and then take a stand against it. Does it matter at all in your rampage that you’re getting on your high horse about things I haven’t even said?
So please, please, please… if you’re going to come back here and discuss this it would be nice if you’d actually refer to things I HAVE ASSERTED instead of making up bullshit lies and then proclaiming yourself correct.
I’m happy that you think that victims are not powerless. Congratulations! That’s awesome because NOBODY ELSE HERE is saying that they aren’t.
Sleep it off and post again when you’re sober,huh?
OK, genius. Why don’t you tell us all what you are talking about? The favorite word of people that type a lot without actually saying anything is strawman. I can’t believe it took you that long to pull it out, but now that you have, please, explain what you know.
Tell us ***all ***what you know. There is nothing in this post that implies anything. All you have said is that I know nothing about AV, but you have not indicated ANYTHING that shows that you do.
Here is what you have ASSERTED, throughout your posts (in a nutshell, of course… an appropriate container). “I (Sleeps With Butterflies) know about DV. YOU (SFP and anyone like you) know nothing.”
That’s not a lot to go on. So wow us. Your “proof” is nothing more than telling anyone that doesn’t agree with you that they are wrong.
So go get your books, or search the web, pull out some bullet points, and lets see what you come up with.
I’m not expecting you to put down ideas that are in your head. I expect you to “cheat” by using reference materials. So feel free. You haven’t put one fact in this entire thread.
It wasn’t meant to convince you of that. It was meant to convince you that there is no right time to leave when the other person is unhinged.
By the time an abused spouse realizes what is going on, the dice has been cast. There is no turning back, the abuser already owns him/her (in their sick mind), and is not going to let go easily. You are the one that is not understanding this: it doesn’t matter when she left, it’s says nothing about their relationship.
And yes, I believe abusive people are at bottom pained people. They have either been victims of abuse themselves, are mentally defective, or have a deep inadequacy complex. They are in pain too, but it still not justify one iota what they do to other people. I’d have more sympathy if they were only self-destructive.
I read somewhere (excuse me the lack cite) that for some abusive men, the birth of their child, and the natural changes in dynamics in the relationship after the birth of a first child are taken as betrayal, and lack of interest. They may turn violent/more violent towards the mother, and sometimes even the child. That was the case with Marlene at least.
I see no evidence that Oksana is a golddigger. In fact, to my way of thinking, golddiggers don’t have babies out of wedlock. And they don’t give up a six-figure income for men they don’t love before he puts a ring on it. A golddigger would never end up in this situation, with a brand-new baby, and a clearly insane co-parent, with no income, and not even a guarantee of the use of the house she and the baby are in unless she can keep crazy-boy from kicking them out. A golddigger would have schemed this out, and have a financial back-up somewhere she could pull from.
I hope her friends and family will hear these tapes and come rescue her. She needs rescue.
I think back to the exhaustion and stress of the few months with a new baby and my heart bleeds for her. It’s hard to muster the strength to feed yourself. I hope she’ll be able to just head for the Women’s shelter, or a friend’s house. It can be so hard though.
There is absolutely nothing in this world that could possibly justify his rant. And I can’t see anything that she has gained from the situation, except a precious child, for whose life and well-being she now fears. She’ll have to deal with Gibson for a long time, I’m afraid, and the interaction will never be to her benefit, or to the benefit of the child.
There is no amount of money that could make what she’s been through, what she’s going through, or what she will endure worthwhile. But if she gets some money out of it, I think she should accept on behalf of her child. It’s the only thing her Father will ever offer her that might be of value.
ETA: I don’t always agree with you Dio, but thank you from the bottom of my heart for everything you have said in this thread.