Men going their own way (MGTOW)

[even_sven]

The problem with your explanation is that group X consists of all women, regardless of who they are, what they’ve done, or what their beliefs are. They all get called nasty, hurtful things by this group, just for existing. And generally we consider it “not cool” to try to hurt people based on inherent traits.

Group Y consists of a very small subset of men who have actively chosen to participate in a vocal group that puts misogyny at the center of their group identity. They get mocked not for existing, but for actively making a choice to belong to a ridiculous “movement” that makes a big public deal about their ridiculous beliefs.

[Bridget_Burke]

@Dr.Strangelove

That’s great, but you still have to allocate resources. With the current allocation, we see outcomes that are worse for men than women, and the gap is increasing. That suggests that the allocation might be tweaked a bit.

That said, I also don’t think that throwing money is the right solution. It’s the style of education that’s the bigger problem.

Oh, we’re “throwing money” at education. Just the thing the Republican opponents of public education claim. So, you’re definitely one of those misers who wants to hold onto His Tax Dollars instead of contributing to the public good. If boys are flunking out, make the girls pay.

I began my public education back in the 1950’s–your & Starving Artist’s Last Perfect Era. Boys didn’t get to run roughshod in school back then, either.

[jz78817]

@Bridget_Burke

Oh, we’re “throwing money” at education. Just the thing the Republican opponents of public education claim. So, you’re definitely one of those misers who wants to hold onto His Tax Dollars instead of contributing to the public good. If boys are flunking out, make the girls pay.

I began my public education back in the 1950’s–your & Starving Artist’s Last Perfect Era. Boys didn’t get to run roughshod in school back then, either.

too many people think Leave it to Beaver and The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet re-runs are documentaries.

[Grrr]

@billfish678

Well who the heck doesn’t want a relationship their way? Do you order food you don’t like?

I think the point Elbows was trying to make is relationships are about give and take. MGTOW doesn’t seem to grasp that concept.

[billfish678]

@Shakes

I think the point Elbows was trying to make is relationships are about give and take. MGTOW doesn’t seem to grasp that concept.

Fair enough point.

Now maybe the MGTOW founders/enthusiasts are wacka doodles who think that.

But some posters here, myself included, are arguing that some of their points, at least turned down to 7 from 11, have some validity. Or if not validity, are at least argueable.

I know I never made any arguement that any relationship shouldn’t have any give or take.

[Jane_Elliot]

Going My Own Way is a statement of self-ownership, where the modern person preserves and protects their own sovereignty above all else. It is the manifestation of one word: “No”. Ejecting silly preconceptions and cultural definitions of what a “man or woman” is. Looking to no one else for social cues. Refusing to bow, serve and kneel for the opportunity to be treated like a disposable utility. And, living according to their own best interests in a world which would rather they didn’t.

I made it a little more inclusive, but that’s almost exactly a statement of how I live my life. No kids (which ended my first marriage) fiercely independent, determined never to get married again; with a life full of friends, adventure, and laughter. And Feminism made it possible.

[wonky]

@billfish678

But some posters here, myself included, are arguing that some of their points, at least turned down to 7 from 11, have some validity. Or if not validity, are at least argueable.

Can you put the points you think are worth discussing into your own words so that they can be discussed? I think that would help me. Maybe it would help others, too.

[billfish678]

@jsgoddess

Can you put the points you think are worth discussing into your own words so that they can be discussed? I think that would help me. Maybe it would help others, too.

Ugghhhh, WHAT do think my other posts were?

Or do I have to mansplain them?

[wonky]

@billfish678

Ugghhhh, WHAT do think my other posts were?

Or do I have to mansplain them?

I dunno. Let’s quote all of them:

@billfish678

Good post there Chauve.

@billfish678

Perhaps you should look up the definition of “some”. And a few other qualifiers Chauve used.

@billfish678

Ahh, the old your ancestors screwed over my ancestor so fuck you and suck it up now gambit.

An oldy but a goody.

@billfish678

I hate other people because I’m just an asshole sometimes.

But that’s just me.

@billfish678

Well no shit.

But you know what I meant.

Or do you want to score debate points by winning by showing me you don’t know what I meant and will defeat my non point?

@billfish678

I’m sure plenty of men think that.

But there is a variation on that. The intimate relationship isn’t worth the RISK (vs trouble). They would like a “good” relationship with a “good” woman. But you have be all in before you find out whether that is true or you are victim of bait and switch, or the woman goes crazy because thats just what she’ll do eventually.

As a guy, if you hear about enough, or gawd forbid grow up in /experience a relationship where it’s pretty obvious the woman is the crazy asshole, you’ll start thinking twice about rolling those dice.

And I think this movement should be called Men Doing What the Fuck they Want

@billfish678

Well who the heck doesn’t want a relationship their way? Do you order food you don’t like?

And there is a difference between can’t risk and won’t risk.

I’ll let you figure that one out yourself.

@billfish678

Fair enough point.

Now maybe the MGTOW founders/enthusiasts are wacka doodles who think that.

But some posters here, myself included, are arguing that some of their points, at least turned down to 7 from 11, have some validity. Or if not validity, are at least argueable.

I know I never made any arguement that any relationship shouldn’t have any give or take.

I read your posts and other than the part about risk, which I’m not sure if you are agreeing with or explaining, I don’t see you talking about their valid points.

[Chauve]

@jsgoddess

Can you put the points you think are worth discussing into your own words so that they can be discussed? I think that would help me. Maybe it would help others, too.

I was looking around the MGTOW member forums for the first time. Presumably the forum portion of the website reflects the experience and concerns of the members. By comparison, I haven’t gotten into the blogs yet (which would presumably be more about the philosophy of the owners of the site).

Most of the forum stuff seems to be along the lines of:
–How do I quit being a doormat?
–Yay, I’ve quit being a doormat! When women screw with me, I just tell them off!

To spell it out a little bit:

Society treats men as dumb beasts of burden and women as repositories of tenderness, culture, and learning. So in a relationship, the women take it upon themselves to nag men and civilize them. But that puts men in the position of always being in the wrong and being enablers to nagging, narcissistic wives and girlfriends.

So a lot of the posts are about guys comparing notes:

Q: Should I still be in this relationship–I’m always trying to please my girlfriend and getting nothing but grief in return.
A: If she’s treating you like shit, then treat her like shit back.

Of course with answers like that, you end up with a lot of posts of guys encouraging other guys to act poorly. But in fairness, a lot of the advice is in a “mutual support” vein. And no one is putting down good relationships. It’s more about learning to stand up and not take crap in bad interactions.

There’s a little bit of PUA (pick-up artistry) talk in the dating section. But not much. These guys are more about avoiding head games rather than playing them.

And outside of the humor section (linked in the OP), there’s not that much talk about feminism. That is: It’s assumed that feminism is at least partly to blame for some of the ongoing problems in relationships on a society-wide basis. So the posters take plenty of shots at feminism in passing. But at least in the forums, most of the talk is about one-on-one interactions between guys and the women they meet, and the idea of feminism as some kind of evil philosophy wrecking society really isn’t on the minds of most of the posters.

Here’s some sample literature about being a doormat in marriages (from a post stickied in the relationship section): It’s a marriage quiz:

1. Do you believe that her wants, needs, and feelings are more important than yours?
2. Do you believe that her hopes and dreams are more meaningful than yours, especially when she does nothing to pursue them?
3. Do you believe her concerns and grievances are more legitimate and in greater need of redress than yours?
4. Do you believe it is your responsibility to cater to her petulant whims and unreasonable expectations and calm her temper tantrums whenever she feels unhaaaapppy?
5. Do you really want to be with someone who makes you miserable?
6. Do you think you are helping the situation by staying married to a woman who believes that YOU are the source of her misery?
   It’s never too late to reclaim your life. After all, it’s YOUR LIFE. Who do you want running it??

http://www.mgtow.com/forums/topic/thinking-of-leaving-take-this-quiz/

I don’t see stuff like that as awful. It’s snarky, but it’s not horribly wrong to encourage people to take this kind of inventory of relationships.

Summary:

As a guy, I don’t see the site (or at least the foruming portion of it) as overly anti-woman or even anti-feminist. It’s more about mutual support. At its worst, it’s a lot of “guys encouraging other guys to act poorly” in reaction to what they see as a cold, harsh relationship world. “If they’re going to treat you like crap, then don’t be coy: Treat them like crap right back.”

YMMV. My impression is undoubtedly influenced by the fact that I think guys really do have it tough in some respects and have trouble finding that fine line between being “a nice guy” and standing up for oneself.

Again, I haven’t looked into the blog portion, so I can’t speak about that.

[CinnamonBabka]

I only hope that I never sounded like these guys when I was single.

[billfish678]

@CinnamonBabka

I only hope that I never sounded like these guys when I was single.

Of course not.

That only comes when you are divorced

[Chauve]

@billfish678

Of course not.

That only comes when you are divorced

LOL. Me: Divorced twice.

[wonky]

@Chauve

To spell it out a little bit:

Society treats men as dumb beasts of burden and women as repositories of tenderness, culture, and learning. So in a relationship, the women take it upon themselves to nag men and civilize them. But that puts men in the position of always being in the wrong and being enablers to nagging, narcissistic wives and girlfriends.

…

YMMV. My impression is undoubtedly influenced by the fact that I think guys really do have it tough in some respects and have trouble finding that fine line between being “a nice guy” and standing up for oneself.

Again, I haven’t looked into the blog portion, so I can’t speak about that.

Just to be clear, are you stating your opinion, or are you giving a summary of what you think the site is about?

For me, I absolutely think guys have it tough in some respects. Restrictive gender roles, for example, handicap both sexes. They have been relaxed more (I think) for women than for men, and this harms men. To tie it to another complaint, one of the biggest ways it harms men is that if they are fathers, they are less likely to be the primary caregiver, and less likely to win custody battles because 1). judges have biases about women being primary caregivers, and (more importantly in most circumstances) 2) judges will tend to award custody to the parent who spends more time being that caregiver. Men are less likely to win by both of these standards.

So, how do we fight this battle, among many? Two things come to mind:

1. We have to battle the perception that men are not as good at parenting as women, and

2. We have to battle the reality that in many families men are not spending as much time caregiving/parenting as women.

I guess I look at these solutions and look at what this MGTOW movement seems to be suggesting and I think “Pulling away is not going to help this.”

[CinnamonBabka]

@billfish678

Of course not.

That only comes when you are divorced

Nah. I’m bitter, but not bitter enough to blame society for my problems.

[Chauve]

@jsgoddess

Just to be clear, are you stating your opinion, or are you giving a summary of what you think the site is about?

I’ve only checked out the site for a grand total of one hour or so. I’m trying to sum up the mentality that I’m seeing there. But obvious I provided some opinion as well (“I don’t think it’s so bad…”).

@jsgoddess

For me, I absolutely think guys have it tough in some respects. Restrictive gender roles, for example, handicap both sexes. They have been relaxed more (I think) for women than for men, and this harms men. To tie it to another complaint, one of the biggest ways it harms men is that if they are fathers, they are less likely to be the primary caregiver, and less likely to win custody battles because 1). judges have biases about women being primary caregivers, and (more importantly in most circumstances) 2) judges will tend to award custody to the parent who spends more time being that caregiver. Men are less likely to win by both of these standards.

So, how do we fight this battle, among many? Two things come to mind:

1. We have to battle the perception that men are not as good at parenting as women, and

2. We have to battle the reality that in many families men are not spending as much time caregiving/parenting as women.

I saw little or nothing about custody issues in there. I’m sure the subject comes up; I only skimmed superficially. But it’s not like there was a big section devoted specifically to that.

That’s kind of a point I’ve been making earlier in this thread. We discuss MTGOW here at SDMB, but we discuss it from the point of view of rape statistics or custody issues. In fact, those kinds of things aren’t really what that website is about. The website is more about one-on-one face-to-face issues: Rants about people crapping on each other in daily interactions. At least, that’s the case with the forum part. (I didn’t investigate the blogs yet; that may have more to do with “societal” or legal ramifications. I just haven’t had time to check.)

@jsgoddess

I guess I look at these solutions and look at what this MGTOW movement seems to be suggesting and I think “Pulling away is not going to help this.”

Eh, it’s probably for the best. These guys aren’t trying to change anything. They’re just saying that they’re fed up and don’t want to play the game anymore. It’s not about effecting change or bettering society. Like I said earlier, I would say it’s more of a mutual support society for guys who have become severely disillusioned. As such it’s neither good or bad; it just is.

[LionelHutz405]

I thinks some people are making it harder to understand the MGTOW philosophy by mixing it in with the MRA movement. They are not the same and in fact there is some hostility between the two groups.

Both seek to inform other men about men’s issues, but MGTOWs don’t care about the ‘A’ part. There is no activism and no leaders.

[marshmallow]

It’s an interesting undercurrent that’s been building a long time. The stereotypical and much admired “alpha” who eschews relationships and screws whoever he wants damn the consequences is the prototypical MGTOW (doesn’t it just slide off the tongue). But most of these men aren’t anywhere close to that. That guy doesn’t post a bunch of rants and sob stories on the net, he just does it. I see it as more like an aspirational fantasy.

On the reverse opt out strategy, I think a dedicated, male version of Lysistrata would be great. Really shake up the social strata, crash the population like in Europe and Japan, smash the consumerism culture, and twist modern feminism into a pretzel. Won’t ever happen though. For all their bluster, guys have the self control of a toddler in a candy shop.

Have you ever looked into no masturbation challenges, or stuff like NOBNOM? Read their posts? To most guys going thirty days without jerking it may as well be climbing Everest. Women can do that just by accident without even thinking about it. So it’s the most hollow threat imaginable.

Another threat these men love to make is the boycott of Western women. Too uppity, so they turn to subservient foreigners. But women can also go international, so hey, win win.

I’ve actually seen a decent amount of people of both genders blame this on the sluts, more or less. They give it up so fast and so effortlessly, so what’s the point of romance? There’s no value in courtship or marriage anymore, as they see it. Because of them, men don’t have to play the women’s games anymore. Women who want to compete have to emulate them and lower their standards for sexual access. But it’s not conducive to long term relationships either. So the system crashes. Will no one stand up for the sluts anymore?

Honestly, sometimes I think gays and lesbians have a better system. They date people more like them. Much more sexual compatbility. Gay guys can endlessly objectify their partners or oogle other guys without being called sexist creeps. Lesbians can stop having sex together without being called frigid by a demanding husband. Less a need to conform to societal expectations.

[Chauve]

There’s definitely a lot of whining, ranting, and glass-half-empty pessimism at that website. That’s pretty much undeniable.

Still, to the extent that these guys form kind of a shadow army of “walking wounded” in the relationship wars, then it’s probably good that they can congregate and share their stories. A little group therapy, and all that. I’m not sure it will increase their understanding of why they’re in the situation they are in. But if they can opt out of the relationship wars for a bit and just learn to live their lives on their own terms (instead of trying to be people-pleasers and crying when that fails), maybe it will do them some good.

IOW, it all looks relatively benign to me. The biggest negative about that website is that it’s not a picture of American males that people typically like to see: The whiny, petulant “beta male” side, or whatever.

[dude77]

@Jane_Elliot

Going My Own Way is a statement of self-ownership, where the modern person preserves and protects their own sovereignty above all else. It is the manifestation of one word: “No”. Ejecting silly preconceptions and cultural definitions of what a “man or woman” is. Looking to no one else for social cues. Refusing to bow, serve and kneel for the opportunity to be treated like a disposable utility. And, living according to their own best interests in a world which would rather they didn’t.

^ this is more like what my understanding of what this whole thing is about … I haven’t checked any websites or any other of that other stuff … but my understanding of mgtow is exactly in the name … ‘going their own way’ … going you’re own way … not putting all your focus and committment on someone else … a woman etc … some will still date women, entertain their company and all that good stuff … but again, they’re not the main focus of their lives … they’re just independent … physically and emotionally … nothing to do with hating anyone