Men going their own way (MGTOW)

[Chauve]

I think this hyper-focusing on statistics for rape charges is missing the point a little bit. Just a little thread history:

In post 67, LinusK quoted something from the MGTOW site:

@MGTOW site

He goes on: “Almost all young men have attended mandatory sexual harassment and anti-rape seminars, and they know that they can be fired, expelled or arrested based more or less on the word of any woman. They know they are basically guilty until proven innocent in most situations.”

The comment wasn’t specifically about false rape charges. Furthermore, the quote is clearly about workplace policies, not false rape charges in criminal court.

The guy is just saying that women have to be handled with kid gloves in the workplace. If you’ve ever seen a boss try to fire a woman employee for incompetence in a big organization, then you see it: Instant sexual harassment claim. It’s an easy way for a female employee to get back at a boss who gives her bad marks. And false claim or not, the company heads often just deal with it by transferring the gal to another division, while the guy’s career is derailed. Even if everyone knows the gal is a loser, you still don’t want it on your record that you had harassment charges brought against you at a company tribunal.

Anyway, the quote is clearly about workplace policies, not false rape charges in criminal court. There’s a different burden of proof in the workplace, and those “mandatory sexual harassment and anti-rape seminars” can make one quite paranoid, because women really do have a lot of power in the workplace. Companies don’t want to get a reputation as being woman-unfriendly. The workplace is all about keeping a lid on things. They don’t necessarily try to get at the truth or demand proof; they just look at the quickest way to sweep things under the carpet.

Subsequently, I myself plagiarized the same line in my own post 86. But it was still about the workplace environment, and I didn’t say anything about rape at all. Personally, I was thinking of harassment charges.

@Chauve

Meantime, at work, he knows he can be fired, expelled or arrested based more or less on the word of any woman. He knows he is basically guilty until proven innocent in most situations.

A couple posts after my own post, it was Freudian Slit who took the quote out of the workplace and transferred the setting to criminal court:

@Freudian_Slit

When did this place get so damned bitter? And for a place that prides itself on fighting ignorance, really, do so many of you actually believe that any woman can get any man thrown into jail or fired for rape or sexual harassment? Is this real life?

I didn’t want to go into details, so I ducked the issue in my response to Freudian Slit and just said that I was talking about perceptions:

@Chauve

I’m just saying: It’s a perception that men can fall into when they find themselves at an impasse in life. Just as women can start getting paranoid about seeing all men as potential rapists and getting paranoid anytime a man hits on them.

Support networks can help both sexes parse these issues more realistically and point them toward resources if they really feel they’re being victimized in such a manner. Women have those networks; men don’t.

Again: To me, it’s just a perception issue. Men perceive certain issues as a threat; it would be good to have a central support network or information source much as women have NOW or other feminist organizations.

Still LinusK picked up on Freudian Slit’s comment about false rape claims and wanted to debate the issue of false rape claims in criminal court starting with post 128. Fine. And now it’s getting on 50 posts later and the discussion has turned into an argument solely about false rape charges in criminal court.

Anyway, I just want to clarify: The starting point was actually about workplace policies, not rape charges in criminal court.

And to me, the problem isn’t specifically about false rape claims or false harassment claims or wives claiming “spouse abuse” and taking them to the cleaners in divorce court, or about women playing the victim, etc.

Rather, it’s about all those things taken together–a lot of guys just don’t know what’s true and what’s not or what their exposure is when they get into a relationship with a woman and it starts heading south. They don’t know what their exposure is if they have a difficult female subordinate in the workplace. HR tells them to document this and that, but then the bosses throw them under the bus anyway to fend off bad publicity and bad morale. Again, it’s a perception thing. Women have some real power, and men get a little paranoid when they don’t know their liability. Thus, my argument for some kind of male support network.

Anyway, just thought I would rehash the origin of the “false rape claim” discussion, since I had a part in it and I saw where it kind of got derailed.

[Chauve]

@MGTOW site

He goes on: “Almost all young men have attended mandatory sexual harassment and anti-rape seminars, and they know that they can be fired, expelled or arrested based more or less on the word of any woman. They know they are basically guilty until proven innocent in most situations.”

Actually, I’m looking at the original quote again, and it says “they can be fired, expelled or arrested…” So he’s talking about workplace, college, and criminal court. But the “arrest” could be as a result of false accusations of spouse abuse (which definitely happens in acrimonious splits). The quote is so all-embracing and vague that it doesn’t necessarily have to do with false rape claims at all.

In any case, my own quote was definitely about the workplace alone.

[LinusK]

@raventhief

According to RAINN, out of every 100 rapes, 32 get reported to police. Of those 32, that the police may or may not investigate (maybe they just want to clock out and go home, or they do investigate, and find an alibi or whatever) 7 lead to an arrest. Ok the police investigated at least those 7, and then 3 of those cases (of investigated, non-alibied suspects) are referred to the prosecutor for trial. Of those 3, 2 lead to conviction. Not bad, 2 of 3, right? Better than 50/50. No, 2 out of 100. It seems to me that there is more involved in sending a man to jail for rape than just “He did it! Send him to jail!”

You said that as far as the court system goes, nothing else is required but the (convincing) say-so of the woman to convict a man of rape. Judging by the dropoffs in numbers as it goes through the system, it seems like there is a lot more involved. The entire process, I would think, would weed out a lot of false accusations. And I don’t think rape trials are usually strictly “he said/she said.” Aren’t there usually other witnesses, other evidence in play such as rape kits, etc?

ETA:

In the interest of perfect clarity: if the jury doesn’t believe her, the defendant will be acquitted.

If someone makes a false accusation, they’ve committed a crime. If they repeat the accusation, under oath, they’ve committed another, more serious crime (perjury). Having their name dragged through the mud should be the least of their concerns.

If the jury doesn’t believe her, he will be acquitted. EVEN IF SHE IS TELLING THE TRUTH.

True. It’s also true that if the jury does believe her, he’ll be convicted, even if he’s innocent. It’s an unfortunate fact, but juries don’t always get it right. The Innocence Project has freed 332 wrongfully convicted people, so far, and they investigated only a fraction of cases. In a he said-she said case, for example, they would not investigate, because DNA evidence - assuming it existed - would not exonerate the defendant.

And I don’t think rape trials are usually strictly “he said/she said.” Aren’t there usually other witnesses, other evidence in play such as rape kits, etc?

Other witnesses? No. I mean, I’m not saying rape never happens in public, but it’s rare. (Even consensual rarely happens in public.) If there are other people they’d likely be accomplices, not - strictly speaking - witnesses.

Rape kits. That depends. How long until the rape was reported? Was there a condom? If there is DNA evidence, it’s evidence that sex happened, but it’s not evidence of non-consent (in other words, that the sex was rape.)

There’s no requirement that the alleged victim has bruises or broken fingernails, or anything like that, if that’s what you’re asking.

[LinusK]

@Lamia

Which man was that? If you’re referring to “Drew”, the fraternity member accused of luring “Jackie” into a gang rape, his life wasn’t ruined because he didn’t exist to begin with.

Sorry, I got my cases mixed up. I was talking about the mattress girl, Emma Sulkowicz.

In figuring that out, though, I did learn a new piece of information: apparently she’s released a sex tape.

Emma’s victim, Paul Nungesser, experienced years of death threats and harassment, despite a mountain of evidence she’d been lying from the beginning. Luckily, he was never arrested. The case was dismissed after Emma declined to cooperate with prosecutors.

[Rigamarole]

So a group of men bring up a number of valid complaints about the behavior of women in our modern society. This board dismisses them by simply saying “obviously, these men can’t get laid”. But that’s exactly what their complaints are primarily about - the behavior of women in relationships including marriages, which you wouldn’t have much grounds to complain about if you hadn’t been in one.

I am currently separated from a wife who cheated on me - but not only did she cheat on me, she claimed (and still maintains) that her actions were entirely my fault because I did not always want to have sex when she did. Sadly, I’m dead serious. She genuinely believes that a man should never refuse a woman wanting sex and it’s some kind of grievous insult to her to do so (but of course this doesn’t work the other way - she always reserves the right to say no). There were a number of times I would be exhausted, trying to avoid sex, and she flat-out raped me. If I got soft at any point she’d go into a rage and a big, inevitable (verbal) fight would follow if not then, then the next day. And I’d end up apologizing to her just to placate her and keep the peace. So most of the time I tried to perform even when I didn’t want to just to avoid the headache of that.

She also ended up burning all the money I had saved even though before we got married she swore she’d get a job and contribute to paying half the expenses. She put very little effort into that though, eventually getting some part-time work (after nearly a year), but keeping the money she made 100% to herself and never contributing a dime toward the bills, because that’s the “man’s responsibility”.

Women like this are out there, and they aren’t even that rare. They live in a world where everything is entitled to them and they have zero accountability or responsibility for their own actions. While I don’t think all feminists are like that, I do think that this is a problematic cultural attitude and modern “feminism” has contributed to it by making women feel like they are these oppressed victims who deserve so much just for existing.

[Broomstick]

I agree, Rigamarole, that the behavior you describe in your ex-wife is unacceptable.

It’s the usual problem - the majority of people aren’t like that, but the misbehaving minority screws it up for the rest of us.

[Little_Nemo]

@Rigamarole

So a group of men bring up a number of valid complaints about the behavior of women in our modern society. This board dismisses them by simply saying “obviously, these men can’t get laid”. But that’s exactly what their complaints are primarily about - the behavior of women in relationships including marriages, which you wouldn’t have much grounds to complain about if you hadn’t been in one.

But these MGTOW’s are claiming that the problem is women. They apparently don’t consider the possibility that the reason they’re not getting laid/dates/married is because they’re flawed. As far as they’re seeing things, they’re perfect and it’s women who are flawed.

And it’s a movement. They’re not claiming that one woman is a problem or some women are problems. They’re writing off the whole gender. All women are the problem.

So, if that’s the case, why are other men getting laid/dates/married? If women as a gender are unreasonable and are refusing to see men, wouldn’t all men be affected by it? But that’s not the case. There clearly are men that women are willing to date, to have sex with, and to get married to.

Which leads to the conclusion that the problem these MGTOW’s have is themselves.

[Rune]

@Little_Nemo

But these MGTOW’s are claiming that the problem is women. They apparently don’t consider the possibility that the reason they’re not getting laid/dates/married is because they’re flawed.

Can you point to where they are complaining about not getting laid/dates/married? Or is it merely something you slip in between the lines? Certainly they seem to be actively shunning getting married. Mainly they seem to be thinking committed intimate relationship with women isn’t worth the trouble.

Mostly it seems to be the male side of the often heard: “Where have all the good men gone.” The good men and the good women are out there, and the good women will value a man who live by the principle of him defining his own worth after his own standards and not being subservient to her – which is exactly what they propose men should do.

[Kobal2]

@Jragon

So… they’re MRAs.

More specifically, they’re MRAs who have decided to build their own treehouse, no gurls alloud. Personally, I think it’s great that those chucklefucks take themselves out of the interacting-with-females-in-any-way market. It’s pretty much win-win. And another win if they do so before reproducing.

[QUOTE=Rigamarole]
Women like this are out there, and they aren’t even that rare. They live in a world where everything is entitled to them and they have zero accountability or responsibility for their own actions. While I don’t think all feminists are like that, I do think that this is a problematic cultural attitude and modern “feminism” has contributed to it by making women feel like they are these oppressed victims who deserve so much just for existing.
[/QUOTE]

Your ex’ attitude and feminism have exactly fuck all to do with each other.

[Little_Nemo]

@Rune

Can you point to where they are complaining about not getting laid/dates/married? Or is it merely something you slip in between the lines? Certainly they seem to be actively shunning getting married. Mainly they seem to be thinking committed intimate relationship with women isn’t worth the trouble.

Mostly it seems to be the male side of the often heard: “Where have all the good men gone.” The good men and the good women are out there, and the good women will value a man who live by the principle of him defining his own worth after his own standards and not being subservient to her – which is exactly what they propose men should do.

Seriously? Can you find anything where they’re not saying it? Look at everything they post. It’s not “Women are good people who are worth getting married to. But I’ve decided to go in a different direction with my life.” Their attitude is “I’m never going to date a woman or marry a woman because there’s something wrong with women.” (And everyone else’s attitude towards them is “You’re never going to date a woman or marry a woman because there’s something wrong with you.”)

[Rune]

@Little_Nemo

Seriously? Can you find anything where they’re not saying it? Look at everything they post. It’s not “Women are good people who are worth getting married to. But I’ve decided to go in a different direction with my life.” Their attitude is “I’m never going to date a woman or marry a woman because there’s something wrong with women.” (And everyone else’s attitude towards them is “You’re never going to date a woman or marry a woman because there’s something wrong with you.”)

Haven’t really looked into it beyond their central points, which I can’t see anybody really disagreeing with. Be your own master, don’t define yourself after the standards of others, don’t be a pushover.
From the first page,

M.G.T.O.W – Men Going Their Own Way is a statement of self-ownership, where the modern man preserves and protects his own sovereignty above all else. It is the manifestation of one word: “No”. Ejecting silly preconceptions and cultural definitions of what a “man” is. Looking to no one else for social cues. Refusing to bow, serve and kneel for the opportunity to be treated like a disposable utility. And, living according to his own best interests in a world which would rather he didn’t.

Beyond a bit of whining towards the end, it’s hard to see anything wrong here. Do you disagree with their statement?

Browsing around a bit a lot of them seem to be Indians, pissed off about Indian girls going with white guys (yah for white privilege!) Others are black, so I don’t really see where all the white-blaming in this thread is coming from.

Personally I disagree with their end. Cutting yourself off from intimate relationship and the chance for a family life is not a noble or worthy end goal. But on the other hand, I think if they practice the items in their statement, they are positioned to have a much better relationship. I also disagree that women are much worse than men (& men are worse than women), but again being your own man should help you sort out the women which are sluts, substandard or in other ways not long-term material. There is a Women are Wonderful effect which many men have to unlearn. Don’t pedestal. Women are just people, neither worse nor better than men.

[even_sven]

@Little_Nemo

Seriously? Can you find anything where they’re not saying it? Look at everything they post. It’s not “Women are good people who are worth getting married to. But I’ve decided to go in a different direction with my life.” Their attitude is “I’m never going to date a woman or marry a woman because there’s something wrong with women.” (And everyone else’s attitude towards them is “You’re never going to date a woman or marry a woman because there’s something wrong with you.”)

This. I know plenty of men (and women) who have decided to live a single lifestyle, and have enjoyed a series of lovers rather than settling down. It’s 2015, and nobody today really gets worked up if that’s what you want to do. It’s a totally valid choice, and actually one that feminists (who are often not particularly attached to the institution of marriage) have fought hard for.

There is no reason, however, to demonized women while you do this.

[elbows]

I only see angry, bitter men who didn’t have delivered to them, what they anticipated and feel entitled to.

“Where’s my beautiful wife? Where’s my beautiful family?”

Yeah, yeah, things didn’t work out how you think they ought to have. Turns out times change, environments change, societal pressures and expectations change. For men. For women. For everyone. All the time.

Who has experienced more of a change in societal pressures and expectations over the last, 30, 50, or 100 yrs? I think by any measure, it’s women. And it makes these men look like they just can’t keep up, with changing times.

There are always those raging against progress, stomping their feet and demanding a return to how it used to be. This is no different, I think.

These men will always be exactly what they are perceived to be: bitter whiners, destined to remain fringe, and subject to dismissive ridicule.

And I’d be willing to bet, in a survey, just as many men think this stuff is nonsense, as women do! It’s fun to talk about and laugh at, but take seriously? No can do, sorry!

[robertliguori]

@elbows

I only see angry, bitter men who didn’t have delivered to them, what they anticipated and feel entitled to.

Yes, and there are lots of people who see angry Birkenstocks-wearing man-haters when they see a “My body, my choice.” sign.

This is your issue, not theirs. Yes, there are many terrible Men Going Their Own Way. There are also many terrible feminists. But Argumentum Ad The Worst People On the Internet Who Hold This Beliefium proves nothing.

Besides, if MGTOW are so terrible, why mock them? Why not give them praise and laud them? If their beliefs are so obviously wrong, and the consequence for holding them is terrible people not interacting with women, isn’t a world where everyone who felt the slightest sympathy towards them fully embraced their philosophy and dropped out of the dating and marriage market a net win condition?

[kayaker]

@robertliguori

Besides, if MGTOW are so terrible, why mock them?

Because they are funny?

[even_sven]

@robertliguori

Yes, there are many terrible Men Going Their Own Way. There are also many terrible feminists.

MGTOW are not the male analog to feminism. I’d argue that feminism is actually the male analog to feminism, but that’s another conversation. MGTOW is the analog to a fringey separatist group.

I feel free to mock them because they feel free to say all kinds of hateful things about me. I don’t feel any particular obligation to elevate the conversation.

[robertliguori]

@even_sven

MGTOW are not the male analog to feminism. I’d argue that feminism is actually the male analog to feminism, but that’s another conversation. MGTOW is the analog to a fringey separatist group.

I think that divvying up feminist beliefs into mainstream and fringey would be a very worthwhile discussion, but also beyond the scope of this thread, as you say.

I feel free to mock them because they feel free to say all kinds of hateful things about me. I don’t feel any particular obligation to elevate the conversation.

Again, we have group N, which contains members which say terrible things about group M. Group M, in turn, contains members which say terrible things about Group N. And we have people from both groups saying that as long as they feel free to say terrible things about us, we should feel free to say terrible things about them, and that they have no obligation to get hit and not hit back.

And that is completely fair. It also means that M and N will be perpetually at war as long as either side contains a small amount of loud, vocal people who can claim to speak for them.

Is this desirable? I mean, if being called terrible things is so objectionable that you reserve the right to be aggressively unreasonable about people associated with people who so call you, isn’t it worthwhile to stop, ask yourselves “Is retaliation actually making things better?”, and act accordingly?

Of course, this is assuming that being called horrible things and getting to call someone horrible things in return is a bad thing. But a lot of people like to have enemies on hand to mock and blame various social ills on. Plus, they can give you the thrill of group cohesion when they mock and blame you right back.

I feel like I’m being a bit one-sided here because I don’t recall a lot of people actually saying “Women and feminists in particular are terrible.” in this thread. If I happened to miss it; pay attention, I’m talking about you. But I’m also talking about the people whose first and only reaction to MGTOW is to mock them for their lack of success with women, and I know there are a lot of them in this thread.

Seriously, folks, it’s the same damn behavior.

[billfish678]

@Rune

Can you point to where they are complaining about not getting laid/dates/married? Or is it merely something you slip in between the lines? Certainly they seem to be actively shunning getting married. Mainly they seem to be thinking committed intimate relationship with women isn’t worth the trouble.
.

I’m sure plenty of men think that.

But there is a variation on that. The intimate relationship isn’t worth the RISK (vs trouble). They would like a “good” relationship with a “good” woman. But you have be all in before you find out whether that is true or you are victim of bait and switch, or the woman goes crazy because thats just what she’ll do eventually.

As a guy, if you hear about enough, or gawd forbid grow up in /experience a relationship where it’s pretty obvious the woman is the crazy asshole, you’ll start thinking twice about rolling those dice.

And I think this movement should be called Men Doing What the Fuck they Want

[elbows]

Often though the difference between winners and losers is winners don’t give up when things aren’t quite the way would have preferred!.

You can’t blame greater society for some paranoids too scared to take a risk to get what they want. They want relationships their way, dammit! But they can’t risk it because …you could get a crazy one!

[billfish678]

@elbows

They want relationships their way, dammit! But they can’t risk it because …you could get a crazy one!

Well who the heck doesn’t want a relationship their way? Do you order food you don’t like?

And there is a difference between can’t risk and won’t risk.

I’ll let you figure that one out yourself.