I think the difference is that nobody is claiming that hating on losers who can’t get laid is an intergal part of some kind of movement.
Well no shit.
But you know what I meant.
Or do you want to score debate points by winning by showing me you don’t know what I meant and will defeat my non point?
I’m not sure who those men are (probably Republicans) but MGTOW is not about turning back the clock. It’s about seeing the world the way it is, right now, and making the best possible choices for yourself, as a man. (According to them.)
I can’t speak for them, of course, but as an example: they’re devoutly opposed to marriage. And they have no problem with getting laid outside the bonds of marriage: they just want to do it at the smallest cost possible. They are not the 700 Club. And they’re not trying to turn back any clock. So far as I can tell, they see the sexual revolution as the greatest thing that’s ever happened for men.
They don’t consider themselves ‘victims’, and would - I think - consider being called a “victim” an insult.
The icon is not about feminism. It’s about marriage. Specifically, about how they see marriage: as a form of indentured servitude.
Nobody, apparently.
Uh. #1 I wasn’t whining. I’m sorry that you think I was. Though I’m not sure where you got that idea. #2. If you want to punish men alive today for things other men did 100 years ago, be my guest. I’m guessing that the fact it’s both illogical and reprehensible won’t stop you.
I’m not sure that’s exactly an objective view of history, but I know you’re going to go on believing regardless, so it’s pointless to argue.
“Get in your face”? How did they do that, exactly? Did you turn on your computer, log on to the internet, click on a thread title “MGTOW”, and then click on links in that thread? If you’re that upset, maybe next time you shouldn’t do those things.
I’m going to tell you something: I voted for Hillary Clinton. When she lost I voted for Obama. And then I voted for him again. I love Barack Obama. I’d have his babies, if I wasn’t a man. Millions of other white men voted for Obama, besides me. And if (when) Hillary gets the nomination, I’ll vote for her.
Hate Republicans? Yes, I loathe them.
But blaming everything on white men alienates potential allies. (Not me. I’m going to vote how I vote regardless - but others.)
The struggle is not white against black or men against women. It’s the very rich against everyone else
I’ll say one other thing: there are millions of white men who have it worse than you do. There are millions of white men who have it worse than I do. Your race and gender do not define where you are on the social/economic ladder. As long as you keep thinking that way, you’re looking at the world with blinders on.
Wait a minute. Wasn’t that what I was just saying - you remember: the thing you said I was ‘wrong’ about?
I’d be curious to see that. You don’t have to show me a majority. How about just… 3?
I’m not sure what you’re saying here. The first time through, I think I just misread it. I thought you were saying you do downplay how toxic their message is.
But now I think you’re saying you just don’t say anything about it, one way or the other.
Because sometimes men wear mean t-shirts.
Ok.
Actually, many of them would be perfectly happy to stay home, if someone else would go out and work all day for them. It’s just that, that’s not an option, if you’re a man.
I don’t know whether I agree with them or not. (I know they won’t have me, since I’m married.)
I do think, if we’re going to talk about them, we should talk about them.
Not something you just imagined in your head.
Of course they do. Your response is, well, not TRUE feminists. The problem is, you don’t get to decide who the true feminists are.
Of the 500 hundred million women (or whatever the number was) who went to see Titanic, how many loved the scene where the White Knight froze to death and slipped to the bottom of the sea while the Princess floated away on her raft?
How many were (self-identified) feminists?
Not true. They blame “patriarchy”. They blame feminists for taking advantage of it when it serves them, and rejecting it when it doesn’t.
See above.
Which legal rights are you referring to?
Well, you’ve certainly done a thorough study of them.
The good news is, there’s a male birth control “pill” (actually, not a pill but an injection into the scrotum) supposedly coming out in the next few years.
I have some even better news for you. There’s already a safe, effective, affordable form of birth control available to men, and it has the added benefit of providing protection against sexually transmitted diseases. It’s called a condom, and it’s available without a prescription in a variety of fun colors and styles.
It’s certainly not something I’ve worried about in my own life. But then, I’ve been married for 20+ years.
Having said that, the Rolling Stone article (among others) where a woman blatantly lied, ruined a man’s life, and became a hero (to some) did give me pause.
Especially in the aftermath, when the mainstream commentary on the incident consisted mainly of “we shouldn’t let this one false allegation distract us from the fact that every other woman who claims she was raped is telling the truth.”
The push to mangle the law of rape is also a concern.
But overall I hear you. Aside from a handful of psychopaths, few women falsely cry rape.
I still believe the justice system is the best place to determine whether somebody’s committed a crime, though, and I believe that “innocent until proven guilty” should get more respect than it generally does. And not just in rape cases - in all cases.
Quoted for truth.
I particularly loathe the lumping-all-white-guys-together method of scorning them (white men).
Guess what? The fact that some white guys have it really good means absolutely nothing to those who have it really really shitty. There’s no secret society where white guys share their toys.
Back on topic: MGTOW seems to go out of its way to reject the idea that they’re whining about anything, or that they need help from anyone (other than, perhaps, each other).
I’d hypothesize that comes from the “patriarchal” idea that men shouldn’t complain, or ask for help.
Can you expand on this please? I think there is an inequity in justice when it comes to race but not gender.
With the exception of course being hot female teachers getting a slap on the wrist for boinking their students. And even then, it’s not that men aren’t getting what they deserve. It’s just that the women aren’t being punished properly.
You need to read what I wrote again:
I bolded the last sentence, for emphasis.
In the interest of perfect clarity: if the jury doesn’t believe her, the defendant will be acquitted.
If someone makes a false accusation, they’ve committed a crime. If they repeat the accusation, under oath, they’ve committed another, more serious crime (perjury). Having their name dragged through the mud should be the least of their concerns.
Which man was that? If you’re referring to “Drew”, the fraternity member accused of luring “Jackie” into a gang rape, his life wasn’t ruined because he didn’t exist to begin with.
According to RAINN, out of every 100 rapes, 32 get reported to police. Of those 32, that the police may or may not investigate (maybe they just want to clock out and go home, or they do investigate, and find an alibi or whatever) 7 lead to an arrest. Ok the police investigated at least those 7, and then 3 of those cases (of investigated, non-alibied suspects) are referred to the prosecutor for trial. Of those 3, 2 lead to conviction. Not bad, 2 of 3, right? Better than 50/50. No, 2 out of 100. It seems to me that there is more involved in sending a man to jail for rape than just “He did it! Send him to jail!”
You said that as far as the court system goes, nothing else is required but the (convincing) say-so of the woman to convict a man of rape. Judging by the dropoffs in numbers as it goes through the system, it seems like there is a lot more involved. The entire process, I would think, would weed out a lot of false accusations. And I don’t think rape trials are usually strictly “he said/she said.” Aren’t there usually other witnesses, other evidence in play such as rape kits, etc?
ETA:
If the jury doesn’t believe her, he will be acquitted. EVEN IF SHE IS TELLING THE TRUTH.
When you have a greater than 10 fold disparity it might be at least worth taking a second look at rather than dismissing out of hand. Incarceration rates by gender | Prison Policy Initiative
This is rather bad math. The 32/100 is not a meaningful metric for this scenario; the scenario we’re looking at starts with the claim, and moves to the point where a great deal of damage has been done to someone’s life (which is at the investigation and trial level, especially if the media gets involved in any way).
So, 25% of accusations result in arrests. We can hope that false accusations make up the bulk of those 75%, but I haven’t seen a study or meta-analysis of false rape accusations that wasn’t politicized down to its eyeteeth, so I can’t say for sure.
Do people want to dig out anecdotes of what happens when moderately-public figures are investigated for rape? I know that there are some high-profile examples of response to the accusation alone, but they’re high-profile and I have no idea if they are representative. I also don’t know how persuasive the average false rape accusation is compared to a true rape accusation; if true rape accusations are statistically-weighted towards hard-to-prove scenarios in which consensual sex was within reasonable doubt (possibly involving parties, drinking, the accused and victim knew each other, etc.), and false accusations are weighted towards making the case sound open-and-shut, to cause harm through the initial publicity and investigation, they could be highly disproportionate in the harm caused.
This is complex stuff. I don’t think we can just look at similar scenarios and multiply out a chain of probabilities without taking a close look at how the scenario we’re looking at differs in each link of the chain.
7 out of 100 accusations result in arrests. That’s 7%, not 25%. About a third of reported accusations leads to an investigation.
ETA: 25% of INVESTIGATED accusations lead to an arrest. That means that the police investigated and found enough evidence (beyond her say so) that an assault took place.
Yes, a false accusation does tremendous damage to the accused. An unconvicted rape does tremendous damage to the raped. The 32 that are investigated may or may not lead to that damage; I agree that’s it is complex and I can’t really draw a meaningful conclusion about how harmful rape accusations are, or how likely it is that a woman can destroy a man’s life based on on a he said/she said scenario.
I ran out time. I screwed up my own stats.
RAINN is looking at rape under-reporting. So if we extrapolate that 32 to 100% -of those 32 that are reported, 7 lead to arrest. Yes, that’s 25%. The earlier argument, that I was responding to, was that police talk victims out of pursuing the case. If we assume that all 100% are investigated, then 75% do not result in an arrest.
nm
Were you going to correct me? 
I corrected myself.
Pretty much. I was going to ask you to clarify how unreported incidents count as accusations. But, yeah, you ninja’d me.
The other flaw with that data, in THIS discussion, is that those stats, being related to under-reporting specifically, are about actual RAPES. Out of every 100 rapes, 32 are reported, etc. This is assuming that all 100 are actual assaults, not accusations that may or may not be true.
I was just trying to highlight the fact that it’s not that easy to send a guy to jail based on “he said/she said.” My understanding is that it’s a bit more involved than that. Then I got all tangled up in numbers and whatnot. Mea culpa.
I wasn’t dismissing anything out of hand. That’s yhole whole reason I asked him to expand on that.