Men going their own way (MGTOW)

You’re right of course, but just the same, feminists have their own extremists. From what I’ve seen, there is a contingent that blames all of society’s ills on “the patriarchy”, no matter who is harmed.

No one should listen to extremists, but they unfortunately make a lot of noise and are hard to ignore. So a lot of people associate feminists with man-haters when really there are just a tiny number like that and the rest are more like what you describe.

It all kinda sucks and I wish people could look past the extremists (on all sides) and maybe try to figure out which grievances are legitimate.

You think? LOL.

Sorry, I just realized that you answered on behalf of Lamia. Apologies for implying otherwise. Still, the rest of the post stands.

This could only be true if there were far more men looking for women than vice versa. Or, given the approximate equality, I guess the wealthy handsome charming men could all be fucking far far more of their fail share, crowding out the awful men.

But I’ll tell you something about wealthy handsome charming men - we’re very selective. So the average woman might be happy to marry a wealthy charming handsome man, but he probably doesn’t feel the same way about her. So she finds a guy who’s not quite wealthy or handsome or charming but hopefully they’re happy anyway.

So happiness is within the grasp of even regular men.

Why should I go out of my way to “understand” a few basement-dwelling losers that can’t get girlfriends?

Just a general comment or response to the OP.

In all fairness, there is a bit of a double standard here. That is, women and men have different levels of resources and support. For example:

Woman sometimes find themselves at an impasse in life:

Woman gets courted and treated like a princess. Guy tells her he’ll take care of her for life. Ten years later, she has a passle of little kids, and hubby is never home: He’s out fooling around with other women. Woman has no job skills, and she fears that she’s never going to get enough from hubby in a divorce settlement to pay for the kids’ upbringing and help her get set up to support herself as well.

Answer for such a woman: Feminism and its related organizations and resources. Feminism tells her to have confidence in herself, directs her toward resources for getting an equitable settlement in court, etc.

Meantime, men can also sometimes find themselves at an impasse in life:

Man courts a woman and treats her like a princess. He says he’ll take care of her for life. Ten years later, and she has turned into an unbearable harpy. If he tries to stand up for himself or argue with her, she cries, “Spouse abuse!” If he wants to go to a counselor or talks about a trial separation, she promises that she’ll rape him in court. Meantime, at work, he knows he can be fired, expelled or arrested based more or less on the word of any woman. He knows he is basically guilty until proven innocent in most situations.

Answer for such a man: None. Any organization that might pop up to help him boost his confidence or give him resources would automatically be branded misogynist and neanderthal. The assumption is that guys are supposed to figure this out for themselves. Or they’re supposed to be more like women. Or something.

Summary:

I think the real answer is that both women and men shouldn’t let themselves get in these fixes in the first place. That is, men and women should have enough self-confidence and presence of mind that they should be able to handle life without needing organizations and laws to help them: “Just stand up for yourself!”

But experience proves that both sexes can get themselves in jams. Not all men or women get themselves in such gams. But some men or women do.

Trouble is that it seems men aren’t allowed to have the same fall-back resources as women. In fact, feminists even argue that feminists are working for men as well. So men shouldn’t need male-oriented organizations; they should just become good feminists.

Right…

Anyway, I’m not a member of an MGTOW or MRA group. I haven’t even checked out their websites beyond what was linked in the OP. (And I did laugh at the posters.)

Still I register the lopsidedness of things sometimes. That is, men aren’t supposed to have or need their own public organizations: The argument is that traditionally men already have things like golf clubs and “old boy networks” that serve as pre-existing support networks for them. Trouble is, not all guys have access to those old-school resources. And without access to those things, there aren’t really any centralized networks or hubs to give guys guidance that some may need.

So as a result, you get guys ranting on the Internet about mistreatment by women; a lot of it is borderline misogynist. So maybe some more "official* men’s group with a more positive slant might help out.

Again, not all men would need this help. But some men might.

(Just brainstorming here.)

You don’t want to go out of your way to “understand” them, yet know enough of them to know they’re all basement-dwelling losers that can’t get girlfriends. Check.

Anyway, it’s merely classic shaming technique. It’s like saying all feminists are fat, hairy and ugly.

Good post there Chauve.

When did this place get so damned bitter? And for a place that prides itself on fighting ignorance, really, do so many of you actually believe that any woman can get any man thrown into jail or fired for rape or sexual harassment? Is this real life?

I’m just saying: It’s a perception that men can fall into when they find themselves at an impasse in life. Just as women can start getting paranoid about seeing all men as potential rapists and getting paranoid anytime a man hits on them.

Support networks can help both sexes parse these issues more realistically and point them toward resources if they really feel they’re being victimized in such a manner. Women have those networks; men don’t.

Thanks!

I have to wonder how much of this is aligned with reality. especially #5; a lot of the crap I see on reddit etc. sounds like a bunch of bitter dudebros who can’t understand why they can’t get a hot girlfriend with no effort on their part.

You’ve lumped yourself in with them. If that was not your intent, perhaps you should have thought a little harder before writing 20-odd posts about how much you agree with them.

This does not at all seem representative of the bulk of reality to me.

Perhaps you should look up the definition of “some”. And a few other qualifiers Chauve used.

Narcissists and their enablers come in both sexes. Sometimes the guy is the narcissist and the put-upon wife is the enabler. Sometimes the woman is the narcissist and the hen-pecked husband is the enabler.

I’ve seen plenty of entitled, spoiled narcissists of both sexes trailing an abused, shat-upon spouse after them. The answer: People need to stand up for themselves. And men sometimes need as much help with that as women do.

Bolding mine.

Yep. Unfortunately, it seems to me that kids are being taught to run to the first ‘authority’ figure to ‘fix’ the problem when trouble comes up. Many of these kids are adults now, and don’t know where to turn, or how to fix the problem on their own.

From the very first post that comes from the site in question:

424.,

jz, perhaps I’ve confused you with someone else but if I remember right you’ve posted here before about having problems dating and relating to women, right? And you’ve been single for a long time? However, you don’t seem to be blaming your problems on a subtle conspiracy against men or a deep-seated problem in modern society. What’s your secret, man?

You’re joking, right? Japan and parts of the Middle East have some of the most paternalistic, men-first cultures in the world. Whatever problems white dudes have scoring dates in the West, they’re not the same problems that are turning Japanese into “herbivores” or driving young men in the Middle East to terrorism.