Several posters seem to be implying that maybe in some areas the pendulum has perhaps swung a little far.
But if you look at the centuries when girls were sold into marriage, biology was destiny, challenging a man could see a woman burned as a witch. Or even more modern times when women couldn’t vote, or inherit property, or divorce, when it was okay to beat your wife, etc.
My point is if you’re unhappy with the way the pendulum is swinging currently surely the blame must lay with those responsible for pulling it back so far, for all those centuries, yes? Because that’s what’s causing it to swing too far for your tastes now. As I must, it will settle into some comfortable middle with time. Till then I suppose you’ll just have to wait for things to turn your way. Like women did. For centuries.
As for men going their own way, I say: “You Go!” Please!
I’ve got a feeling these guys end up as pathetic old men getting fleeced out of their pension cheques by crack whores. But I could be wrong, it’s only a guess!
We share a world with a very powerful and brilliant spiritual being, Satan. He loves putting enmity between people. People that belong to different races, genders, ages, cultures, … and sometimes it even starts off as “harmless jokes” and from there evolves into ridicule and … humiliation and ultimately to hatred and murder. Rocker Mick Jagger once sang a song about Satan’s clever ways, “But what’s troubling you, is it the nature of my game?”
I say take a step back, take a deep breath, and see what’s really going on in this horrible evil and screwed up world!
Don’t know that’s what it’s all about - haven’t read enough to know. But I did notice the shaming, too, and it’s ironic (if that’s the right word), because by doing it they’re making MGTOW’s point for them.
I know about feminists too, but I’ve taken a very different lesson from what they say and what they do than you have. Not saying you’re wrong, just that we have a difference of opinion. Feminism is not about equality. Women will gladly embrace gender inequality when it yields preferential outcomes. Feminism is about making things better for women. With a healthy dash man-hating thrown in.
Not saying you’re wrong, mate. Just saying seem have had different experiences of the same thing.
Also, and FWIW, MGTOW explicitly reject “patriarchy” (whatever that means). In fact, one of their more prominent complaints concerns what they call the 'White Knight" syndrome.
The cultural expectation put on men (the patriarchal expectation put on men) is that they’re supposed to ‘save’ women and protect them. In extreme cases, against not just real threats, but whatever women claim is a threat to them. MTGOW says - and I’m not saying agree, just telling you what they say - that feminism doesn’t reject patriarchy, it uses it to obtain better outcomes for women.
I was mentioning Texas Republicans cutting funding to education. To answer your claim that, since some boys were doing badly in school, our limited educational resources must be taken from girls to focus on boys.
Are you one of the guys who wants to cut educational funding because* you* don’t have kids? These stingy fellows are active in all the states. (And overseas, I believe.) In fact, some of your overseas pals kidnap or kill girls trying to educate themselves.
Why not have a general policy to improve education for everybody?
Well, at least the MGTOW are an idiot fringe. About as representative of most men as Rune’s fantasized feminists are of real women.
Um, er, uh, pretty clearly not the point I was making. At all. In any way.
It was complete male dominance for centuries, that drew the pendulum so far back, that it was destined to swing this far the other way. Blaming women is utterly disengenuis!
(I’m not sure if you’re being purposely obtuse, or just need to work on comprehension, to be honest!)
I mean, if I rail against affirmative action and say why can’t we just have a level playing field starting right now, and a black guy replies because your ancestors screwed over my ancestors, I can get where he’s coming from because I can see where he’s going with that.
But if my sister says your ancestors screwed over my ancestors, how the heck should I reply? “Hey, me too; same proportion and everything; what are the odds, huh?”
In the ME, we have shitty economies and a cultural system that utterly fails to prepare young men to interact with women like humans. Terrorists tend to be educated but have few job opportunities. So they have neither the resources nor social skills to attract mates, and turn to extremism.
In Japan, we have a cultural system that expects men to work very long hours to support their family (“salarymen”). It’s not really optional when starting a family, since home prices and everything else is so expensive. And while it’s not as bad as elsewhere, they also have the problem of undersocialization. They choose to quietly “opt out”, which is better than extremism but contributes to the economic problems.
So no, not exactly the same, but there are some clear patterns:
Poor economies and missing job opportunities
Static social expectations but changing environments
Increasing costs to starting a family
Failure to properly socialize boys with girls
The more I think about it, the more I realize that even sven was right on the money when she said that feminists would be natural allies with these men. Paternalistic societies may harm women more than men, but they don’t harm all women more than all men, and in the end they harm everybody a lot. Unfortunately, the poor socialization harms their very ability to gain these allies.
That’s great, but you still have to allocate resources. With the current allocation, we see outcomes that are worse for men than women, and the gap is increasing. That suggests that the allocation might be tweaked a bit.
That said, I also don’t think that throwing money is the right solution. It’s the style of education that’s the bigger problem.
Note to self: lock phone before giving phone to baby.
Let’s look at a common MRA cause- custody. Now, there are two causes of disparate custody outcomes (I’ll ignore, for the moment, people who don’t actually seek custody of their kids).
One is an essentialist argument, something along the lines of “women are natural caregivers and nurturers, and are inherently better suited to parenting.” This argument is used in the handful of states that have mother’s custody as the default over joint custody.
You know who is against that line of thinking? Feminists. Feminism generally strong rejects essentialism and the idea that women were made to nurture and men were made not to.
The other reason is that custody takes into account who serves as the primary caregiver- who feeds the kids, takes them to dance class, goes to the PTA meetings, etc. This is often women.
Why? One is just plain old gender roles playing out in the family. Feminism is generally against this, and would like to see a more equal distribution of caregiving.
The other is that men have a harder time achieving work-life balance. Feminists are also against this. They would like to see more balance between male and female careers, with women “leaning in” while men have more stigma-free access to things like paternity leave and alternate work schedules. They would like to see family friendly workplaces for everyone.
If you’re up to it, you might consider asking The Good Lord to have you go through a “certain” experience He had me go through back around 1967. He’ll of course know who you’re talking about and the experience in question if you simply say with sincerity something like, “Dear Jesus. The fellow that calls himself Dibbs says that if I ask you to have me experience that which he says he experienced many years ago regarding the question of whether or not Satan is real, that you might see fit to do it. Well, I’m skeptical, so please go ahead and let me have said experience sometime in the near future. Thank you.”
It of course all depends on whether or not The Good Lord sees fit to do it. He might not, who knows? BUT, if He does, then all I can say is that as much as it’s possible to do, try to keep in the back of your mind that’ll only last for no more than one minute! (About 40-seconds, as I recall.)
Good luck and be sure to report back here in the event that Jesus answers your prayer…
P.S. You might say that you can’t because you don’t believe in Jesus, either. If that’s the case, then all I can say is that you should give it a shot anyway because then you’d know about His existence as well as the other entities existence all in one fell swoop! It would be a win, win!
Is religious proselytizing germaine to this thread? You haven’t even related your religious beliefs to the subject matter of the thread, other than to say, “People hate each other because Satan.” You could throw that into any thread on the SDMB.
This is not the fault of feminists. In fact, feminists talk frequently about how gender stereotypes hurt everybody.
This pressure from mainstream media’s portrayal of men’s social order is coming from other men who use it as a way to pressure girls into traditional marriage. Traditionally, men have benefited from this because it gives them a captive housekeeper and sex partner. If that’s not working any more, well, good. If you don’t want the pressure of traditional gender roles any more, take it up with the 700 club.
Regardless of the social message that is being sent to men, it pales next to the way that, for three thousand years, Western culture has been engineered to force women into having no other option for their survival but to acquire and serve men.
It’s not a surprise that some men are bitter that the old ways don’t work for them any more. Nonetheless, complaining that they are the victims here shows a shocking lack of historical perspective.
It’s not much different than the way Southerners complained about how uppity and dangerous black people were after their slavery status was imposed on them.
They’re not using the subjunctive. They’re not talking hypothetically.,They’re talking literally about how feminism wants to impose servitude on them. It is to laugh. Hence, the laughter.
The fact that they’re coupling it with the whole five-year-olf-running-away act just makes it funnier. “I’m going my own way! Really! Here I go! You can’t stop me. I’m leaving now. Ok, this time, I’m really going! I mean, it! Try and stop me! Really! Just try! I’m not kidding! GAWD, women are so mean for not stopping me! It’s so unfair!”
See this is what I’m talking about, for the historical perspective.
You do realize that for every pic of a woman in that tank top, I can find you one of a man in similar misogynictic tank top? In other words, who gives a shit?
Secondly, these thousands of years of oppressing women didn’t stop forty years ago. In our life times, doctors have refused to give birth control to women unless their husbands approved? Landlords and banks have refused to deal with women unless their husbands or fathers were involved? People still argue that it’s impossible for a husband to rape his wife.
And you want to whine to me about a goddamn tank top?
The only reason I have access to education, financing, legal protections is because of feminism. That’s the only reason my life with computers is possible. And there are still big chunks of this planet who think I should be beaten and enslaved or worse.
Meanwhile, Dipshits going their own way tell me, to my face, that they want to get a “real” woman - from those very cultures where women are oppressed - someone who knows how to be a traditional wife. Get the fuck out, already.
It’s exactly the same thing in both cases.
**even sven - **I’m glad you’re able to say what I want to say, only better.
It’s a reaction to the last eight years of conservative partisanship over Barack Obama. Just as racism has been more open, lately. The same people who have been stoking racist white people’s anger also have a vested interest in stoking sexist anger ahead of Hilary’s run for president. It’s no coincidence that Breitbart has been supporting Gamergate all these months, for example.
It sucks, but we have to have this out, I guess. The good news is the tide is shifting on racism and sexism. They don’t stand up well to sunlight.
Not only are you wrong, I don’t believe for a minute that you really have made any study of feminism at all.
The main point, of course, is that while there are certainly women who want to see all men tarred and feathered, the majority of feminists disagree and disown them. You don’t see us supporting them here, downplaying how toxic their message is and pretending like really, they have some good points, because you know, sometimes men wear mean t-shirts.
Bullshit. They support patriarchal gender roles for women, where women are meant to keep house and wait on men. That’s why they talk about how much they hate Western women but love women from places like Japan and Thailand. They sound just like the Taliban, in that regard. They know exactly what the partriarchy means when it comes to imposing it on someone else.
It’s only their own partriarchal responsibilities they’re complainging about - having a good job, a nice homw and so on. That’s the part they resent.
The White Knighting claim - that’s not a rejection of tradtional gender roles. That’s just part of their stupid anti-Social Justice Warrior terminology. In their circles, calling someone a SJW is the same as the old “niggerlover” claim. It’s an attempt to threaten and shame someone into abandoning support for the enemy position.
Yeah, you don’t agree, you just spend post after post defending them.
The problem with your interpertation is threefold:
It’s not feminists who want men to protect women at all costs and put us on pedestals.
MGTOW blame feminists for imposing this ideal of men protecting women at all cost.
MGOTW talk about this ideal of men protecting women and putting them on pedestals as a recent development that feminism has imposed on them.
Real history is full of men kicking women in the teeth every chance they get. The idea that men have all been living a preux chevaliers for the last three thousand years is risible. Even in the Victorian era, where high class women were put on pedestals, lower class women were still getting it in the shorts. You think the servants who scrubbed on their hands and knees - not allowed to own property, not allowed to make legal decisions, not allowed to get educated, not allowed to report if someone rapes them - you think men were sacrificing themselves for those women?
Feminists are saying that we don’t need men to treat us like goddesses (something mose women never experienced anyway. ) Feminists are saying we want the same legal rights as the men have.
It’s possible that the MGOTW are just raging morons who have no grasp of history, gender roles or social expectations. It’s also possible that they are malevolent, disingenuous, sexist fuckwits.