Worked well my French Pox. And I miss mercurochrome. The stuff worked great–never had an infection when I used it and the very thought of the pain it caused would convince a guy to “walk it off” rather than tell Mom he’d hurt himself. Made a man outta me, it did. Almost to the same degree as the hooker who gave me the Pox. 
Okay, Redhead, do you know WHY the drug companies continued to use Thimerosal if it didn’t work? And you’ll note that most of your references refer to the TOPICAL use of various sorts of mercury compound, not SPECIFICALLY Thimerosal and not the longterm exposure that happens in a bottle of vaccine.
I find your humor…a bit strange, but then again maybe this topic is humorous to you and some of the other pro-mercury posters. Maybe that merthiolate did more than …make a man out of you.
These are facts re thimerosal/merthiolate. Not all are topical exposure…and that really is a stretch in your analysis anyway. The Chiron incident was just a few years ago and was all over the news. That was found out but were there other times that were not? Who knows but I would hardly call thimerosal a great preservative.
But, the bigger issue is that this little detour that you took us on shows that the studies I posted have not been looked at or discussed.
What about those?
Here are some more-
Int Rev Neurobiol. 2005;71:317-41.
Immunological findings in autism.Cohly HH, Panja A.
Department of Biology, Jackson State University, Mississippi
Int J Immunopathol Pharmacol. 2003 Sep-Dec;16(3):189-99.
Infections, toxic chemicals and dietary peptides binding to lymphocyte receptors and tissue enzymes are major instigators of autoimmunity in autism.Vojdani A, Pangborn JB, Vojdani E, Cooper EL.
Lab. Comparative Immunology, Dept. Neurobiology, UCLA Medical Center
Toxicol Appl Pharmacol. 2005 Apr 15;204(2):109-21.
Immunosuppressive and autoimmune effects of thimerosal in mice.Havarinasab S, Häggqvist B, Björn E, Pollard KM, Hultman P.
Department of Molecular and Clinical Medicine, Molecular and Immunological Pathology (AIR), Linköping University, SE-581 85 Linköping, Sweden
Toxicol Ind Health. 2002 Apr;18(3):109-60.
Organic mercury compounds: human exposure and its relevance to public health.Risher JF, Murray HE, Prince GR.
Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, Division of Toxicology, Toxicology Information Branch, Clifton Road, Atlanta, Georgia
Environ Health Perspect. 2006 Jul;114(7):1083-91.
Uncoupling of ATP-mediated calcium signaling and dysregulated interleukin-6 secretion in dendritic cells by nanomolar thimerosal.Goth SR, Chu RA, Gregg JP, Cherednichenko G, Pessah IN.
National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences Center for Children’s Environmental Health, and Department of Veterinary Molecular Biosciences, University of California-Davis
Environ Health Perspect. 2002 Feb;110 Suppl 1:11-23.
The three modern faces of mercury.Clarkson TW.
Department of Environmental Medicine, University of Rochester School of Medicine, Rochester, New York
The reaction toward thimerosal among anti-vaxers is actually reminiscent of what’s been spouted on the subject of water fluoridation.
“Fluoride is TOXIC! It’s a rat poison!! etc. etc.”
There are many substances that are harmful in excess, yet useful and safe at low levels.
Your focus on thimerosal is rather pointless, since it’s been out of most vaccines since 2002. Other countries eliminated it earlier. If it was the culprit in autism, autism rates should be plummeting.
Instead, they’re stable or going up.
It makes sense to focus our limited research funding on viable potential causes and treatments for autism, rather than placing children at risk by attacking vaccination.
What about them? Pick some and try to show their relevance to vaccination and autism, as opposed to cutting and pasting lists of publications, virtually all of which appear to have little or nothing to do with the topic, assuming they’re not hopelessly dated (i.e. a report from 1948 doubting thimerosal’s anti-bacterial efficacy). How about starting with this one you cited:
- Federal Register, Department of Health and Human Services, Food and Drug
Administration… Status of Certain Additional Over-the-Counter Drug Category II and III
Active Ingredients. (April 22, 1998);63(77):19799-19802. 21 CFR Part 310 [Docket No.
75N-183F, 75N-183D, and 80N-0280.
What does that say about thimerosal/vaccination and autism?
Dude, it’s dark. And strange. I’m the comic relief. Answer Jack. He’s the one who knows what he’s talking about. :rolleyes:
Your response is so typical. A quick comeback that has little to do with this thread re thimerosal studies. A distorted, fear mongering, commercial for vaccines.
I am not here talking about the vaccine program yet you and your herd continually try to use that to get off the science track regarding thimerosal and causation to autism.
I never brought up flouride…why would I? Get a grip.
You obviously are spending an enormous time trying to defend…what? …a poison, a vaccine program…your genetic studies, your job??
Since you brought up “pox”…I’ll end with that theme…or about the past use of mercury to cure syphilis. It didn’t, it exacerbated the condition, people defended it, people were poisoned by it, and its use was stopped.
The use of thimerosal has not stopped. Don’t try to say it’s even close. 90% of the flu shots contain it. Pregnant women and infants are the most susceptible yet are the most marketed in ads and the media.
"The initial recommendation was changed to recommend that the child get two doses of the influenza vaccine a month apart for each child’s first immunization against influenza,
b. The initial age range of 6 months to 23 months in 2002 was expanded to:
i. 6 months to 35 months in 2004 and
ii. Then to 6 months to 59 months in 2006,
and
c. The restriction to the second and third trimester of pregnancy was removed in 2006
And these:
Thimerosal is still present in some of the US vaccines given to children that were Thimerosal-preserved before 2001 (e.g., Aventis Pasteur’s [now Sanofi Pasteur’s] Tripedia®, DTaP vaccine; GlaxoSmithKline’s Pediarix®, DTaP-HepB-IPV vaccine; Aventis Pasteur’s [now Sanofi Pasteur’s] DT vaccine; Aventis Pasteur’s [now Sanofi Pasteur’s] Decavac® Td vaccine; Aventis Pasteur’s [now Sanofi Pasteur’s] TT vaccine, which is still a fully Thimerosal-preserved vaccine;
GlaxoSmithKline’s Engerix-B®, Hepatitis B vaccine; GlaxoSmithKline’s Twinrix®, HepA/HepB vaccine; and Biken’s JE-VAX® Japanese Encephalitis vaccine, which is still Thimerosal preserved and is currently distributed by Sanofi Pasteur)
Since all Thimerosal-preserved childhood vaccines produced in 2001, 2002 and, apparently in some cases, 2003 for the U.S. market were not recalled, doses of vaccines from some vials (UK: phials) of these unused in-date Thimerosal-preserved vaccines continued to be administered to some babies until 2005, if not later.
Given the preceding realities, there is no science-based expectation that the current “autism spectrum disorder”rates should have dropped at all, much less precipitously.
In fact, given the addition of the Thimerosal-preserved influenza shots for pregnant women and children 6 months and older in 2002 coupled with the residual doses of other Thimerosal-preserved still being administered from 2002 into 2005, the actual rates should have been expected to show, at best, a slight decline in the cohorts of children born in 2000 and 2001 followed by an increase in rates in the cohort of children born in 2002 through 2004 with a slight decline in the cohort of children born in 2005 and afterward toward the levels seen in 2000 and 2001 provided no further increases in Thimerosal-exposure are incurred.
Since “autism” is officially diagnosed when a child is 3 to 5 years of age and the inoculation with the flu vaccine now continues up to 5 years of age, the true pattern of “autism” incidence will not be available for review until about 2012 provided:
• No further changes are made to the current recommendations,
• The vaccine uptakes remain stable, and
• The formulations of the available vaccines are not changed."
*Courtesy of CoMeD
Coalition for Mercury-Free Drugs
For any who want the real science and not this Alice in Wonderland dialogue from too many here, please visit these websites and pick up these books:
http://www.autismwebsite.com/ari/index.htm
http://www.autismwebsite.com/ari/index.htm
http://www.nationalautismassociation.org/
Evidence of Harm: Mercury in Vaccines and the Autism Epidemic: A Medical Controversy (Hardcover)
by David Kirby
Children With Starving Brains: A Medical Treatment Guide for Autism Spectrum Disorder, Second Edition (Paperback)
by Jaquelyn McCandless
Changing the Course of Autism: A Scientific Approach for Parents and Physicians (Paperback)
by Bryan Jepson (Author), Katie Wright (Foreword), Jane Johnson (Collaborator)
Okay, kidz, if it weren’t obvious already he’s fighting the clown rather than the researcher*, here is where you step in. I hand you over to your most capable hands.
However, donning my Real Human Being Hat, redhead60707, if’n you need anybody to support WHY we need vaccinations rather than your scare tactics, and I notice you haven’t addressed them, I’m old enough to remember Polio and the morons who depended on herd immunity to protect their children. It didn’t work then and, the more jerks** like you who hope it will, the fewer kids it will protect.
-
- No apologies, mods. The numbers are my reference.
** - Ditto
- No apologies, mods. The numbers are my reference.
And…to repeat…the bizarre tactics of conversation that you spew are just detours.
I have never…REPEAT…never said anything about ending vaccine use.
This is another way for you to ignore what is really being laid out very clearly.
Vaccine mercury…aka thimerosal has no business being in a product…injected or topical or in contact fluid, etc…whatever product you will bring up next.
YOU keep bringing up vaccines…my posts are about thimerosal.
Comments like “jerks” shows that you are running out of tricks in your bag so you now need to resort to a new level.
Why does this topic fuel such mean and ugliness in people? Don’t you want safe vaccines? SIngle dose vials would end any need for a preservative…or another preservative could be made without toxicity.
What are you afraid of?
Damn skippy. I’m getting paid big bucks for this one post alone. You probably heard already, but paying people to shill on message boards is the latest rage. So I’m gonna give 'em their money’s worth.
Ahem.
Hey, parents! Y’know all this stuff you’ve been hearing about vaccinations being dangerous? Well, it’s bunk! Vaccinations are totally, totally safe. We make them out of glacial spring water and the shimmering beams of pure cuteness radiating from newborn kittens and puppies, and we make a product that is absolutely positively guaranteed to save your children from eyeball tumors and the stinky sex rot.
We have tested our vaccines extensively, first on many animals, without harming them in any way of course, and then in hundreds of thousands of carefully monitored preliminary doses to America’s pioneering youth. Not one of them got sick, from anything at all. Many of them have been scientifically proven to be healthier now than they would have been if they hadn’t gotten the vaccine. One of them, in fact, developed strange spider-like powers and now fights crime and is engaged to an erratically hot red-headed model-slash-actress with funky teeth. Results not guaranteed. Side effects may include stuttering, emo hair, and having your aunt thrown off a building.
So, make the right choice: stick your kid with needles and pump him full of totally safe chemicals, and guarantee him a life completely free of the risk of disease. What sort of parents wouldn’t share the blessings of modern medical science with their offspring? Stupid, selfish, poopy-headed parents, that’s who.
Or better yet, consider the advantages of our new PointyBirth 3000, for which we took our cue from the mystical wisdom of eastern fakirs and designed a birthing platform featuring a dense bed of vaccination needles. Squirt that little guy right onto the waiting hypodermics, and feel secure in the knowledge that your newborn didn’t spend more than two seconds exposed to the grotesque viral and bacterial menagerie we call our horrifically filthy world before his veins and arteries were filled with the sweet, sweet gift of chemically engineered salvation.
Or you can choose to take that stupid scare story seriously and withhold consent for vaccination, and watch your beloved babykins get the stinky sex rot and die in your arms. Yeah, nice going. Here’s a medal.
Nope, no fearmongering in any of that. Just laying out the facts in a rational, objective manner.
I’d like my payment deposited directly. Let me get the account number for you…
Do you have some sort of internet-monitoring device that alerts you to any discussion about mercury and autism online, so that you can join up as a guest and proceed to spam it to death? I say spam, because a mindless listing of the literature without any sort of analysis or interpretation helps no one understand you argument. Jackmannii has already called you on this, what exactly do these papers tell us, have you read them?
I can read them myself, as I have an institutional subscription to a lot of the scientific literature as part of my job, 99% of people on this board will not have this access. So it is a poor attempt at ersatz scholarship to lay citations in front of people and stamp your feet when no one runs off to the library to read them.
Please do not take this as encouragement to mount some sort of one-tenth-baked analysis of the mercury II toxicology literature. If all you are trying to tell us is that ethyl mercury can be toxic, then we know that already. Spray it on a field in large quantities and people who eat grain from the field get sick. Put tiny amounts of it in vaccines for little babies, and nothing happens. How to square the circle? :rolleyes: (Dont tell me, though, I think I can work it out myself).
I’d just like to remind people like** redhead** about this. The “herd immunity” only works when the people around you are taking the “risk” of getting themselves and their kids inoculated. If everyone started taking your advice, nobody would be protected.
A personal example: my grandpa, whom I loved dearly, was not vaccinated, since there wasn’t a measles vaccine in 1902. He was nearly deaf from age 7 until he died at 88, as a result of a complication from measles.
Another: My husband, whom I also love dearly ;), was vaccinated (in the late 60’s), and has Asperger’s. Does he think there’s a connection? Do I? No. In any case, he’s a computer programmer and makes more money than I do!
Some articles and studies from good sources suggesting there is no link between thimerosal and autism:
http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000002D39E.htm
Autism rates continue to rise in Japan even after MMR withdrawal:
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7076
And a few good articles on the inexcusable lies of the anti-vax loons:
http://www.pathguy.com/antiimmu.htm
HTH
My hat’s off to the other posters on this thread for doing a fine job in helping to debunk of the most persistent (and dangerous!) parenting myths.
Last post here as this is just ridiculous.
The issue is not to vaccinate or not. It is about removing mercury from every product, including vaccines.
I am sure a safer preservative could be made. Why you all freak and attack that premise indicates something more than just discussing safe vaccines.
The sarcasm and level of confabulation is a waste of time.
Sorry, but the activities of the anti-mercury militia and their allies are heavily directed at attacking vaccination programs and attempting to decrease public confidence in a highly successful public health initiative. Most of your “sources” seem to come from antivax websites - perhaps you could supply links to the sites from which you cut and pasted article titles?
It is laughable, or sad (or both) how stuck the anti-vaxers are when it comes to the stark, undeniable fact that the removal of thimerosal from most childhood vaccines has not reduced autism rates in the U.S. or abroad. With the MMR and other common vaccines being thimerosal-free since 2002 (or even earlier abroad), we should see autism plummeting among young children - instead, the evidence is that it’s increasing. I’m sorry, but continued presence of thimerosal in hepatitis B and Japanese encephalitis vaccine (now there’s a common childhood shot :rolleyes: ) does not overshadow the fact that the great majority of childhood immunizations have been thimerosal-free for years, and autism diagnoses keep increasing.
One of the mercury militia’s gurus (David Kirby of “Evidence of Harm” notoriety) got caught in an embarassing spot when he told the N.Y. Times a few years ago that the removal of thimerosal from vaccines should result in a drop in autism by 2005. 2005 came and went, with no autism decline, and no retraction from Kirby (he apparently pushed his deadline up to 2007. Still no retraction).
If you want real “evidence of harm”, look at what happened in the U.K. after large number of parents stopped vaccinating their kids (largely because of fears raised by the now discredited Wakefield autism study). Measles cases surged:
"In one Dublin hospital, there were nearly 400 measles cases, with three deaths. Seven children required mechanical ventilation and 13 were treated in intensive care wards.
“They had measles the way it used to occur in this country (the U.S.),” said Katz. “We don’t ever want to see that again.”
What scares me is that current efforts by anti-vaxers in the U.S. courts (which have a much lower evidence “bar” when it comes to establishing a case, compared to the scientific community) will
scare more parents away from vaccination and possibly put vaccine makers out of business. There’s a real health crisis in the making.
Thanks to lavenderblue for posting those links, including the CDC one, which includes a fine overview of the thimerosal-vaccine-autism issue and many excellent resources.
I’m not trying to hijack this thread or anything, but I’m curious about something and I can’t search the threads.
I’ve noticed several links to quackwatch. I was wondering about the criticisms of Stephen Barrett, particularly that he is not a board certified psychiatrist as he claims to be. That is not mentioned here but there is some interesting discussion of the man at wikipedia.
That CDC site is f’d up, it just goes back to itself.
I’d really like more information on this, redhead60707 because it seems very compelling. Do you have a cite? And btw coming in here just listing names of publications doesn’t mean squat, nobody’s intimidated or impressed by that. From the spacing of your posts it’s pretty obvious you’re just cutting & pasting from another source and not even bothering to re-format. Puhleeze. We’re friends here, even when we disagree.
[quote=redhead60707
Thimerosal is still present in some of the US vaccines given to children that were Thimerosal-preserved before 2001 (e.g., Aventis Pasteur’s [now Sanofi Pasteur’s]
Tripedia®, DTaP vaccine; GlaxoSmithKline’s Pediarix®, DTaP-HepB-IPV vaccine; Aventis Pasteur’s [now Sanofi Pasteur’s] DT vaccine; Aventis Pasteur’s [now Sanofi Pasteur’s] Decavac® Td vaccine; Aventis Pasteur’s [now Sanofi Pasteur’s] TT vaccine, which is still a fully Thimerosal-preserved vaccine;
GlaxoSmithKline’s Engerix-B®, Hepatitis B vaccine; GlaxoSmithKline’s Twinrix®, HepA/HepB vaccine; and Biken’s JE-VAX® Japanese Encephalitis vaccine, which is still Thimerosal preserved and is currently distributed by Sanofi Pasteur)
Since all Thimerosal-preserved childhood vaccines produced in 2001, 2002 and, apparently in some cases, 2003 for the U.S. market were not recalled, doses of vaccines from some vials (UK: phials) of these unused in-date Thimerosal-preserved vaccines continued to be administered to some babies until 2005, if not later.
[/quote]
It was a voluntary recall, right? Not a “yank it all off the shelves right this instant” kind of thing, correct? So it makes sense that thimerosol-containing vaccines are were still begin administered past 2002. Everybody (including doctors) keeps inventory.
How do researchers who are saying “pulling thimerosol = no reduction” KNOW that the children whose cases they reviewed did not receive thimerosol? Did they actually have the physicians trace the specific lot numbers? If companies have a full stock of the stuff at the end of 2002, wouldn’t they still have at least some in 2003? Doctors might still have some in 2004, right? And if the diagnosis is typically made at age 3, that means accurate numbers for non-thimerosal vaccines wouldn’t be generated until this year.
OTOH, there’s been all kinds of shenanigans and horrible deception on the part of anti-vaxers, particularly David and Mark Geier, a father and son team. I started to quote one of their articles here, but when I looked a little further found them highly suspect. One of them publishes research that “proves” a link between thimerosol and autism rates, the other one is the “president” of a company that sells “Lupron”, which is supposed to help autistic kids. They’ve gotten in all kinds of trouble for misrepresenting themselves, their qualifications, their degrees, their qualifications for providing expert testimony in court.
But again OTOH, these parents who say “My kid was fine, got a vaccine, and started behaving strangely right afterwards”, I believe them. At least some of them. It’s condescending to dismiss their observations with “Oh, you were just missing the early cues.” Who’s to say that the combination of thimerosal, a vaccine, environmental pollution and a genetic predisposition might not do it? Doesn’t cancer take something like 5 “triggers”?
I’m not affiliated with Quackwatch, but I’m familiar with some of the attacks on it and its founder.
From what I’ve heard, Barrett is a psychiatrist who practiced for many years before retiring to pursue an interest and career in exposing medical quackery. He’s stated that he passed part of (but not all) his board certification exam but didn’t feel it necessary to have board certification for his psychiatry practice. Qualifications to hold certain positions in medicine vary among fields, but being board certified in a specialty doesn’t necessarily disqualify one from practicing in it, though it may be harder to gain hospital privileges. It doesn’t seem to me that Barrett’s lack of board certification disqualifies him from presenting information on quackery in various aspects on health care, though his opponents have seized on this in an attempt to dismiss Quackwatch’s well-documented critiques.
One other ploy that’s widespread on the Internet is to refer to Barrett as “de-listed”. This is supposed to get you to think that he had to surrender his medical license or was barred from practicing for some dark reason. Apparently all it really refers to is that Barrett asked the state of Pennsylvania to place his medical license on inactive status after he retired, rather than pay expensive licensure fees for something he didn’t need.
There’s more on the various personal nastiness and libel proceedings that have sprung up from this fooferaw here.
Incidentally, the Wikipedia article on Barrett is a bit more balanced than it used to be, but still shows the effects of heavy editing by his enemies (one of the editors, who’s been criticized on Wiki for alleged one-sided targeting of Barrett, actually was the defendant in an unsucessful libel suit he helped file).
The bottom line is that people involved in controversial health issues and scams can get very vituperative and nasty, both for personal and economic reasons, and there are a lot of attempts to silence the message by attacking the messenger. I regret seeing this ploy used against Quackwatch, which historically has been such a great resource for Dopers.
Some of the links don’t work, but a search on the site for thimerosal and vaccine gets you a ton of articles and reports. Among the interesting ones is a table showing just how few vaccines still contain thimerosal preservative.
Except there’s never been any evidence of which I’m aware that doctors just kept using up the old vaccine (disregarding government recommendations and risking potential lawsuits). Vaccines also have expiration dates and are routinely discarded. By any rational measure the old vaccines are long gone.
Yes, their idea of “treating” autistic children, at least in some cases, involves chemical castration.
But the winner of the deception sweepstakes in my view is Andrew Wakefield, the lead author of the Lancet study that frightened so many parents into not getting MMR vaccinations in their children, leading to an upsurge in measles cases. What Lancet was not aware of was that the now discredited study was funded by a lawyers group interested in major civil litigation on the issue, and that Wakefield personally received huge sums of money from the attorneys.
No, it reflects the well-founded observation that personal testimonials are no substitute for careful scientific documentation.
You propose the theory, you bring the supporting facts - which don’t exist. If I were to suggest that autism is caused by chlorinated hydrocarbon pesticide residues, atomic fallout and cellphone transmissions, it would be my obligation to support that claim with evidence.
Only four, if you already live in New Jersey. :dubious:
Thank you for that info, Jack.
The subject of the MMR vaccine has come up a few times in relation to this subject, but the MMR has never contained Thimerosal. That was a completely separate autism scare, which was contained within England as far as I’m aware.