Tomorrow is the 4th of July. In red-state-America, there will be BBQs and parades, flag ceremonies by local Boy Scout troops, many Pledges of Allegiance will be recited, perhaps some singing of the Star-Spangled Banner, thanks will be given to the men and women of the Armed Services, gratitude will be expressed for the many blessings we enjoy in this country, etc. The whole thing strikes me, and most of my fellow travelers, as rather wholesome and good. The single word we use most often to describe the feelings and activities surrounding the 4th of July is probably “patriotism”.
Many in blue-state-America will likely do many of those same things, but I get a sense that there’s an undercurrent or attitude from some that the whole thing is a bit … unseemly. “Nationalism” seems to be the word I hear from leftists most often used to describe it, and it’s pretty clear from the context they view it as a rather negative thing. Obama has been complaining about it in speeches lately (Salon: Barack Obama warns against nationalism, says the “world is at a crossroads” in Indonesian speech). It’s even become the new label for racism, AFAICT: “white nationalism”.
So, Dopers, what’s wrong with patriotism / nationalism?
Are they even the same thing / as closely related as they seem to me?
Is the concern that nationalism causes us to overlook the mistakes / shortcomings of our country? That it’ll lead to wars? Something else? Or are you good with all the flag-waving?
There’s nothing wrong with being patriotic in moderation. The problems come when it is taken to extremes such that it blinds a person to the legitimate shortcomings of their nation. I find that there are more than a few Americans who think that the USA is the best at everything, and that’s an issue for the USA since it isn’t. If you can’t recognize the areas that could be improved, it is much harder to improve them.
It’s a good thing to have a love and pride in the place you live.
However, many make the mistake of seeing it as a zero sum, black/white issue, that one cannot both love one’s country while also being severely critical of it. Blind loyalty is never a good thing. As Thomas Jefferson said, “eternal vigilance is the price we pay for liberty.”
Well, the pledge of allegiance is a horror on any day, so that’s out. Parades are pointless and crowded, so forget that. I’m okay pausing in early July to contemplate our history and I do feel fortunate to live is a pretty good country. So, I guess that’s patriotism.
When it comes to nationalism being the new label for racism, as in “white nationalism”, that seems sort of like saying “pride” is the new label for racism, as in “white pride”. The modifier - and what that brings to the table of the overall term in practical terms - is the important part.
Anyway, that said, as an ironic flag-bearer for the rejection of the praise of symbols and entities in general instead of the specific, I would say that the problem is three things; first, that celebrating good things by pushing them under the umbrella of a symbol or something general leads to creating a “grey area” that makes good things grubby and bad things shiny in viewers; and second, that what a symbol or entity means to me is not necessarily what it means to you, and unnecessary disagreement may ensue between us if I celebrate something noble under the banner of something you hate when instead we might both celebrate that noble thing together. Third, it can lead to co-opting of some fine acts for a cause that the doer might not have supported.
By the way, I only pointed out Americans because the OP was about July 4th and the US. There’s more than a few Canadians who have flawed views of Canada (e.g. don’t get me started on the myth of Canadian peacekeeping). And I’m sure the same can be true for any country. I’m not trying to pick on the Americans.
As I put in another thread about US conservatism vs liberalism, the stereotypic US conservative looks at other countries and says “Look how much better we are than they are. That’s good”. While the sterotypic US liberal looks at the US and says “Look how much less good we are than we could be. That’s bad.” They can both be objectively right.
Yup. The Serbians are convinced they’re the greatest country on earth. Why? Because they’re Serbians; that’s reason enough. The Chinese think the same way. So do a sizeable fraction of Americans. And those of many, many other countries as well. But by no means all.
When “I’m thankful we’ve mostly been doing the right thing for 200+ years and will, with luck continue doing so after a short detour just now” shades into “'Merika!! Fuck yeah, let’s kill anyone who doesn’t love us!!! Here, hold my beer. Watch this!!” we’re taking a noble holiday celebrating a noble idea and turning it into an excuse for being a thoughtless bully.
Celebrating personal freedom is good. Demonstrating that your idea of freely chosen behavior is to be a giant jerk is not good.
As is often the case in these kinds of debates, the OP sets up a false dichotomy. Pride in one’s country or the place you live can motivate someone to try and make it the best place on earth, or it can motivate someone to be xenophobic and hateful of criticism of the country.
Here’s a thought: Things that bring people together in the spirit of community and welcomeness are generally good and things to pit people against each other in an “us versus them” nature are generally bad.
Collectively, Americans are so busy congratulating ourselves on our own exceptionalism and fuck-yeah-greatness that we tend to lack the all important sense of introspection & self-awareness.
Awhile back (well, a good long while back) there was an op-ed about a woman who for many years had displayed the American flag on July 4th.
During the Vietnam War, she received congratulations from people who assumed her flag display meant she supported U.S. policy on Vietnam, and condemnations from others who assumed she was a Vietnam war hawk. Both sets of assumptions were deeply flawed.
Traditional patriotic displays are fine with me, and should be acceptable to any American who doesn’t have a full-on loathing for their country. And even if they do, it’s tactically foolish to condemn displays of patriotism, just as it’s counterproductive to sneer at support for those doing military service*.
*we still continue to see periodic Dope threads dedicated to the idea that armed forces members get too much attention/respect.
Let’s get real. Liberals aren’t concerned about nationalism. They have a different outlook on nationalism. They want the US to stamp the world into their form. Just as many liberals will be gushing over a gay couple embracing with the flag around them. Both liberals and conservatives will be fawning over the troops.
Was writing a long ass reply, but basically, this sums it up. It’s neither good nor bad, it’s how it’s done that makes the distinction, as many things in life are. I think that US patriotism is one of the things that is kind of unique to the US and can be a very good and strengthening thing, it can help us keep a sense of ourselves, of our history and bring us together in times of crisis or strife. But there is definitely a darker side of this, and I see that very prevalent today in the America First(tm…arr) movement. There are also aspects of our history that are darker, and that shouldn’t be glossed over or whitewashed, but instead examined with lessons to be learned that can and should be looked at deeply, not swept under the rug or glossed over by changing our history to make it rose colored.
The other side of the coin is this:
[QUOTE=Jackmannii]
Traditional patriotic displays are fine with me, and should be acceptable to any American who doesn’t have a full-on loathing for their country. And even if they do, it’s tactically foolish to condemn displays of patriotism, just as it’s counterproductive to sneer at support for those doing military service*.
*we still continue to see periodic Dope threads dedicated to the idea that armed forces members get too much attention/respect.
[/QUOTE]
I totally agree. This sort of counter-reaction is unhelpful, and it ignores our history and our society and culture. Patriotism is part of the US and has been for a long while…it’s part of our collective legend and narrative, something we’ve stitched together to make up the country. Certainly seeing and acknowledging that there is a dark side that we need to keep in check…we need to keep it in balance without reacting one way or the other in an over the top manner.
Today it is back to Love It Or Leave It, with a difference. The 60s hardhat crowd wanted everyone to STFU and get back to the business of being American. Today’s reactionary, or at least the forces influencing him, are much more self-aware. Today, the business of being American IS being reactionary, loyal to leaders, and proudly angry.
It all depends on the motivation(s) for and the actions deriving from any given person’s sense of nationalism/patriotism. This concept has been used to justify arguably great acts and arguably terrible acts. As you hint at in the end of your post, nationalism, or its more extreme form jingoism, can lead to needless wars and maintaining a status quo that oppresses certain peoples. But it can also lead to progress if one sees their nation as in a constant state of improving their understanding and application of their national identity to the betterment of a wider range of people.
I also think the OP does the country a disservice by perpetuating this myth of Red State and Blue State America. I live in the SF Bay Area which, in the parlance of the OP, is a dark Blue spot in the Bluest of Blue States, and we have Independence Day celebrations in every city and town. You’ll see as much red, white and blue bunting as anywhere. Even in the demonic headquarters of Nancy Pelosi herself-- San Francisco. Besides, it sells things.