'MERICA!!! patriotism / nationalism: good or bad?

Great Debates
161

I didn’t jump into a thread discussing the Fourth of July celebration, I responded to a question in a thread as to whether or not it was ever appropriate to criticize the actions of the united states on such a date.

Your analogy of your wife was very flawed, in that you are taking a public celebration with parades and festivals and the expectation that everyone join in them, and comparing that to a private somber occasion between two individuals. So yeah, in order to make your analogy work, I had to involve a third party that has been aggrieved by your wife.

The reason that it was a very egregious act that I described was to see if there were any times when you would feel it was appropriate to criticize her, or if on your anniversary, anything at all goes. You didn’t actually answer that, you just got upset with the idea.

But, for less “out there” comparisons to your analogy, lets say that she has a bunch of points on her license and you are in the high risk insurance pool, and she is driving 20 over the speed limit, would you say “Honey, you should slow down.” or if she has a drinking problem, and she orders wine with dinner, would you say, “Honey, maybe that’s not a good idea tonight.”

Bringing up the fact that she has a drinking problem or has driving issues is not appropriate, unless they are related to the actions that she is taking right now.

Yeah, it’s not all that funny how you misconstrue my words.

It’s not that you find her good with some flaws, it is that you are insisting that everyone else find her the same way too.

It is as if you stood up in the restaurant, shot off fireworks, and proclaimed, “My wife is the greatest woman on earth!” Then looked around, daring anyone to differ from your opinion.

There may be some in the restaurant that she has harmed or otherwise slighted in some way, who may not share your opinion, who would not have offered it unsolicited, but since you are making a big show of how great she is, they are under no obligation to hold their tongue.

Sure, plenty of times. But one of those times is not when you actually ask the question as to whether or not it is appropriate to ever criticize the US, (or your wife) on a special occasion. I was not jumping in to criticize the US, I was answering the question as to who and why someone would.

The you absolute did not understand the point of my post. I did not point out a common criminal, you are correct in that every country has those. I pointed out a criminal that was given a gun and a badge b the govt, and used the authority behind that gun and badge to respond to a call for assistance by raping and beating the woman who needed help, and then received a bare slap on the wrist for his actions.

And the reason for me bringing this up is that the question of, “Who could dare criticize the US on the fourth of July?”, well, she certainly can. If someone waves a flag in her face, and says “Isn’t 'Merica the greatest?” She has very good reason to respond to that question in the negative.

I was confused by your response to my example of a cop who uses his authority to abuse his charges and then get away with it with a slap on the wrist as “quite common”, because I thought you were actually addressing my example.

As that is not the case, I am not quite sure what your response meant, but it apparently was not addressing my example, so was utterly irrelevant.

Let me ask you, straight up, if someone waves a flag in this woman’s face, and says, “Isn’t america the greatest?” do you think that, because it is the fourth of july, she must answer in the affirmative, or does she have a real grievance with which she could legitimately answer?

Yes, any time the question is not brought up, “What’s not to love about America?”, or “Isn’t America the greatest!?”, or any other time when you are specifically making a claim based on your opinion that is based on your personal experiences, and demanding everyone else in public to agree with you.

For a bit of a change of perspective, let me ask you this. Do you feel the fact that it is your anniversary makes you immune from criticism from your wife?

162

Where are you getting this idea that anyone has “the expectation that everyone join in” or is “demanding everyone else in public to agree with” them? I don’t see anyone insisting that people come to a parade or participate in any way, shape or form. If you want to be the 4th of July Grinch, then have at it, no one’s going to stop you. Where did you get the idea it was otherwise?

163

I don’t know what you are talking about. Yes, it is appropriate sometimes to focus on celebrating the things that make America great, but once someone asks if it is appropriate sometimes to focus on celebrating the things that make America great, then it isn’t appropriate. :confused:

My wife is generally good, although she has some flaws. When I take her out for our anniversary, you feel the need to make up stuff about her and say that it isn’t appropriate to celebrate the good things about her, based on the things you made up or exaggerated.

My country is generally good, although it has some flaws. When we talk about celebrating on the Fourth, you need to make up and exaggerate stuff about America and say that it isn’t appropriate to celebrate the good things. That’s odd.

Well, she doesn’t make up shit about my beating up homeless people on our anniversary, if that’s what you mean.

Regards,
Shodan

164

I didn’t. I was simply responding to your question in the OP. “Is the concern that nationalism causes us to overlook the mistakes / shortcomings of our country?”

Yes, it is. That even bringing up examples of when our country has failed its citizens causes you so much consternation pretty much proves my point. You cannot take any criticism about the USA without lashing out against it.

Lemme tell you about my Fourth:

I slept in late, the first time since Easter that I had a chance to do that. I went over to my parent’s house around noon, saw my sisters and my nieces and nephews, cooked and ate some burgers and hot dogs. We talked about how the kids were doing in school, how my business was doing, the weather. We even talked about the parade that one of my nieces was on a float that morning. Then I went over to a friend’s house, where we cooked some more hot dogs over a bonfire, played with the dogs, went in, played some board games.

It was a pretty good day, and at no time during the day did I criticize the United States in any way. A friend of mine did complain that the fireworks bothered his dogs, and I have a friend who was in the armed forces that knows people who essentially have to evacuate their neighborhoods or hide in their basements due to the fireworks triggering their PTSD. My dog doesn’t mind fireworks, and I only get annoyed when they keep firing them off after 2am, so other than nodding and grunting an acknowledgment, I didn’t even participate in that level of pretty valid criticism.

Not sure what the source of your confusion was. You specifically asked in the thread, the question "Is it patriotic to have an occasion where we only talk about America’s good points? ". And I answered with an example of someone for whom it is appropriate to criticize the US, even on the fourth of july.

I didn’t bring up criticism, you brought up the idea that on this day it is inappropriate to say anything bad about the US, no matter what.

I didn’t make anything up about your wife, I made up some stuff about a hypothetical wife. I apologize if you somehow took my examples as direct insults to her, though I am not sure how you would be confused enough to take it that way. I was just bringing up a situation where your hypothetical wife is doing something that should be criticized when they are occurring, and the fact that it is her anniversary should not really be a shield against it.

I do agree completely that bringing up your (hypothetical) wife’s drinking problem is inappropriate, unless she is ordering wine with dinner, in which case, it is appropriate, because of the actions that she is currently taking.

What did I make up? I gave a link to a story. I did not make it up, and I did not exaggerate any part of it. Maybe you don’t like to hear about such things, because they make you feel less pride in your country, but less pride in your country may be a good thing if you don’t think that things like this happen.

I was just pointing out that there are people in this country, citizens who were born and raised here, that may have very legitimate reasons to find the celebration of how great america is to be personally offensive.

No, that’s not what I mean, and I have no idea how you could have gotten that impression. I mean, does she ever give you any criticism on your anniversary, and if she does, do you inform her that such things are inappropriate because it is your anniversary?

But, seriously, I am not sure what you are trying to say there. I didn’t make “shit up about” your wife beating up homeless people, I posed it as a hypothetical, do you really not see the difference there?

Whereas, the cop raping and beating the woman who called the police for help, and then getting a slap on the wrist for it, was not something made up, that was something that actually happened, not a hypothetical.

165

The simple answer would seem to be, “Sure, if the specific matter in question is worthy of only praise, then only praise is the correct response.”

166

k9befriender disagrees. He believes his anecdote about the police officer proves America to be the sort of country that can never be praised.

Regards,
Shodan

167

Could you quote the particular part where k9befriender says that? I’m failing to find it.

Anyway, now that I’ve answered your question, what was my answer supposed to illustrate to me?

168

Have you read the thread? I made an analogy of taking my wife, who is good albeit flawed, out on our anniversary, and he responded by saying it would not be appropriate to refrain from criticizing her if she attacked a homeless person. Then, when asked for something that America did that was equivalent, he mentioned some police officer who allegedly raped a woman. Thus
[ul][li]If my wife does X, it is never appropriate to focus only on her good qualities.[/li][li]America does Y.[/li][li]X = Y[/li][li]Therefore it is never appropriate to focus on American’s good qualities only.[/ul][/li]

I have no idea what your answer was supposed to illustrate to you. If you don’t know what you are saying, I wouldn’t presume to try to explain it.

Regards,
Shodan

169

You certainly seemed to think answering your question could help illustrate something to the answerer. I’m curious to know what, given that I have answered the question, I may be helped to understand about what you’ve posted.

170

Yes, I agree. It was a misstatement on my part, for which I apologize. I should have repeated "He thinks it isn’t ever appropriate to focus only on America’s good qualities.

Ah, I understand.

The question was

If you answer Yes, then I have carried my point and we all rest content. If you answer No, then it is illustrative if you can put forth the reasons why America is never worthy of being praised without immediately changing the subject to her flaws. And of course, if you believe changing the subject in that way demonstrates love of country (assuming you do believe this).

So it’s either
[ul][li]Yes, I love America, and sometimes we can refrain from bashing her. Or[/li][li]Yes, I love America, but we can never stop bashing her, and here’s why. Or[/li][li]No, I don’t love America.[/ul][/li]
Regards,
Shodan

171

So, I can choose between “bashing” or “bashing”? Sad admittance of dreadful flaws doesn’t enter into it?

172

I’d quibble with your use of “bashing” as a accurate synonym for “pointing out flaws”, but other than that, fair enough.

What would you say to my proposal - that instead of celebrating America (or any one thing which means so many things to many people, and is the culmination of many great and terrible things), people instead celebrate those particular good things, instead?

173

This is how I would characterize it:

There are times in which is it inappropriate for someone to bring up true but negative aspects to America in history;

or

There are no times in which it is inappropriate for someone to bring up true but negative aspects to America in history.

I ascribe to the second view – it’s okay for someone to praise America without mentioning negatives, and it’s also okay for me to pipe in and say “but don’t forget A, B, and C”, even on July 4th.

174

The idea that anything that isn’t “praise” is “bashing” seems to be rather primitive.

175

Well, we have Labor Day, to laud and celebrate those Captains of Industry for their generous support and encouragement of economic equality.

176

Dumb thought, but isn’t July 4th Independence Day, anyway? Theoretically the point would be to celebrate the throwing off the yoke of us Imperial jerks, not so much “America”?

177

In the minds of most Americans, I think the creation of the country and “throwing off the yoke of [those] Imperial jerks” pretty much go hand-in-hand. That’s why the 4th of July is, in short-hand, a celebration of “America”. It’s basically the birthday of our nation.

178

The birthday of our nation which constitutionally allows us to bash it whenever we want. What could be more American than that?

179

I agree that we’ve all got the right to bash it whenever we want, but I wouldn’t say it’s always “appropriate”. I thought this question by Shodan was really on-point:

Sure, I guess someone could do that, but it’s the sort of anti-social behavior that alienates and annoys people. I’d call it “inappropriate” even though it’s perfectly legal.

180

That makes sense, though it seems like a pretty good example of my issues with generalised celebration.