Meth addicts with kids

[astro]

[QUOTE=Walter Windchill]
I any case, the thread has calmed down considerably and we’ve gone nearly five minutes without anyone telling me to “fuck off,” so I guess it can stay open. I had no idea the OP would be so confusing/deceitful/upsetting the way it is phrased.
[/QUOTE]

People invest time and some invest effort composing thoughtful responses to (seemingly serious) inquiries that are presumed to be made in good faith. To find out that the time you’ve invested reading a thread, or much more annoying actually addressing the OP, is wasted because someone wants to make a snarky point about their displeasure with a completely and utterly unrelated circumstance is … well… a real pisser, and makes you look more like a manipualtive attention whore than someone who really wants a question addressed.

[Sage_Rat]

Doing some research (i.e. google Scholar), so far the best honest appraisal of polyamory is here:

https://culsnet.law.capital.edu/LawReview/BackIssues/31-3/Strassberg14.pdf

It’s overall conclusion in regards to children is:

We saw that the monogamous family first contributes to the modern liberal state by reinforcing the individuality of the partners and providing a nurturing environment for further self-development. In comparison, while the pursuit of individual self-development is a prime motivation of many adults entering into polyamorous relationships, a family consisting of a
group of adults has considerable potential to suppress individuality due simply to the nature of group dynamics. Groups larger than four may well require a shared ideology to maintain group cohesion, and the ideology can become the basis for coercive suppression of individual thinking and action. While the romantic love that often sparks polyamorous relationships can be a strong force in maintaining a focus on individual needs and development, the jealousy and negative feelings that arise from
sharing sexual partners can also produce a coercive environment that seeks to exert considerable control over all aspects of individual life. Although triads and foursomes may offer less cause for concern along these lines, polyamory does not support limiting the expansion of monogamy to just three or four adults. As polyamory is based on principles of “infinite love” and “love without limits,” every triad or foursome must be free to expand even more. This lack of limits in polyamory turns every triad and foursome, by themselves the more individual-friendly forms of polyamory, into a potential cult.

Monogamous relationships also nurture the individuality of children because children are viewed as the unique product of a unique relationship. This individuality allows children to grow up to seek romantic private relationships that express and nurture their particular individuality even as they also view themselves as abstract individuals requiring a public realm of rights and law to protect this individuality in larger social settings than the family. A conclusive evaluation of the impact of polyamorous family life on the development of children is impossible, due to the lack of data and research on the children of such families. While a single anecdotal interview with a grown child of such a family raised concerns that polyamory can be an extremely “selfish” lifestyle that can in some instances expose children to feelings of betrayal and jealousy vis a vis their parents’ new partners, to sexual molestation by the sexual friends of their parents, to a “sexually charged environment” that causes sexual confusion, to the loss of parental figures, and to the regular invasion of their family constellation and space by strangers who are their parents’ new partners, it is by no means clear that children of monogamous families do not experience similar traumas through adultery, divorce, incest, molestation by step-parents or close relatives, swinging, death and remarriage. Only long term studies of contemporary polyamorous families with children can resolve the issue of whether such families can, with reasonable frequency, provide children with a minimally healthy environment.

Similarly, there is little information on the socio-political development of the children of polyamorous families as autonomous individuals who will seek to create their own families based on romantic love and who will require a public sphere of rights to govern their larger social interactions. To the extent that many polyamorous people express a belief that polyamory will provide the basis of a radical social revolution by changing the personalities of both adults and children, however, it is worth speculating about what the effect of raising children in group families might be. Existing studies about the socio-political effects of raising children in Israeli kibbutzes provide the only basis for these speculations, showing that such children, while benefiting from the increased attention and resources a multi-adult family can provide, may not develop the same sense of individuality, but may develop a “collectivist and conformist” personality. Additionally, there is also a question of whether the seemly idyllic polyamorous family, which provides on its own the “village” needed to raise children, provides a constraining enough environment to create the conflict that pushes children to define themselves as individuals distinct from their parents. If polyamorous families replace autonomous individuality as the underlying foundation for the personality development of their children with a different, possibly more collectivist personality, their grown children will be less likely to base their relationships on romantic love that prizes the individual above all. At the same time, such grown children will be less likely to see the need for a public sphere in which protection of individuality through legal rights is the primary value. The consequence would be that the modern liberal state would be less meaningful both to such individuals and to future generations as well.

(bolding added)

So as yet, the conclusion is that, “Well they might be more conformist than the children of monogamous relationships…” Oh the horror. :dubious:

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

Just for the record, there’s a difference between polyamorous relationships and “open” ones. That is, there’s a difference between a relationship which involves more than two people but which is inherently stable within that framework and a relationship which involves a number of merely transient sexual partners (eg. “swingers”). I think the latter which be much harder for children to adapt to than the former.

[Caridwen]

Can the thread title be changed?
Trying to figure out how addicts try to raise children is depressing. But polyamorous relationships which I know nothing about is pretty interesting.

[WhyNot]

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Just for the record, there’s a difference between polyamorous relationships and “open” ones. That is, there’s a difference between a relationship which involves more than two people but which is inherently stable within that framework and a relationship which involves a number of merely transient sexual partners (eg. “swingers”). I think the latter which be much harder for children to adapt to than the former.
[/QUOTE]

And there’s more different possibilities than the two (three, but only two labelled) that you elucidate:

There’re “swingers”, often complete with clubs, who are looking for short-term generally anonymous sex without relationships. Swingers are generally secretive about their lifestyle, and often present a monogomous front to acquaintances. Or not.

There’re “open marriages”, with two people making a conventional dyad, committed primarily to one another, who also go on dates with other people. These other relationships may be long term or short term, but involve more than just sex. They involve companionship, shared interests, friendship - they involve everything that monogomous peoples’ boyfriends and girfriends do.

There’re “group marriages”, wherein three or more people decide to live as a family unit. These can be further subdivided into polygamous, polygynous or polyandrous - there may be one man with multiple “wives”, one woman with multiple “husbands”, multiple men “married” to multiple women, or any number of primary and secondary relationships between people.

There are other relationships where one primary partner has another lover who may or may not live in, but the other primary partner is never sexual with the lover. In others, everybody sleeps with everybody. Or any variation on the theme.

All of these, and probably a few others I’m leaving out, fall under the umbrella of “polyamorous”, and children may or may not be involved in any of them. That’s one reason why my very first sentance in the other thread was "You’re right that it varies dramatically in different families. "

I think that mine is the style with the most (as someone else put it) effective “firewall” between my children and my sex life. Simply put, they don’t know, and they don’t care. We’ve had a “stable” relationshp for seven years now, we don’t introduce them to our lovers unless the lovers are part of our group of friends (and they’re not introduced as lovers, but as friends), we don’t allow any sexual activity to take place in our home unless it’s between my husband and I behind closed doors, we don’t go out so often that we infringe on family time, we do not stay out all night - we’re always home to wake up as a family in the morning. I can guarantee that unless I told you we were poly, you’d never guess it by living in my household for a year.

So tell me, how am I analogous to a meth addict, again?

[astro]

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
.

So tell me, how am I analogous to a meth addict, again?
[/QUOTE]

Polyamory causes…umm… “Polymouth”!

[Lissa]

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Oh, and as for my bemusement with her cute “polydate”, anyone with half a firing neuron could see that it is total projection on my part. The girl was doing this before she even knew that a poly “lifestyle” existed - how was she “acting out her confusion” before the “confusion” ever existed? She was a kid, playing with other kids and calling two of the boys her “boyfriends”. I brought it up merely because the OP asked if kids of polys are likely to be poly themselves. I said even there that one never knows.
[/QUOTE]

I did the same thing when I was in first grade. Two boys wanted to be my boyfriend but I couldn’t choose because I didn’t want to hurt the other’s feelings. So, I said that both of them could be my boyfriend.

Normal kid behavior, in my opinion. They haven’t learned about jealousy yet.

[What_Exit]

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
…snip…
So tell me, how am I analogous to a meth addict, again?
[/QUOTE]

Well so far, I think it was just one poster (the OP) going over the top in comparison. I cannot comment for or against your choice other than to say it sounds like it is working for your family. I suspect it is as good a system as the standard, American family but as it is outside the normal, it could end up be harder for your kids. Teens can be shallow and cruel for little reason, but on the other hand most kids survive being an outsider in some way without any major problems.

Jim

[fluiddruid]

[QUOTE=Walter Windchill]
I have seen other people not like the way threads go, and request they be locked. Is there a standard that is followed to decide when to lock and when not to, or is it the whim of passing administrator? Just curious.
[/QUOTE]
Closing threads at the OP’s request is done on a case-by-case basis. We do not want to allow the OP to have the ability to get an automatic “last word” or to avoid criticism or response to an inflammatory post. As some of our users are finding your post inflammatory and insulting, I feel that it is appropriate to allow them to respond (in kind, if they so desire).

This is for the same reason that, barring clear violation of a rule (i.e. spam), we do not delete threads. We expect users to be accountable to what they post, and to automatically close threads at OP request would dodge user accountability.

In moderating, we cannot always have a clear cut definition. My advice would be to use caution in starting a thread as we do not guarantee it will be locked at your request.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

The kids are going to find out sooner or later and when they do, they’re going to be devastated. Don’t kid yourself that they won’t. I’ve never heard of one kid who was happy to find out his mom is a slut or that his father is a pussy hound.

[SkipMagic]

[QUOTE=astro]
Polyamory causes…umm… “Polymouth”!
[/QUOTE]

Sometimes, when they get angry at one another, one of 'em leaves–and then it’s a polygon.

[Incubus]

Walter Windchill

Nice hijack, son, but it would have been slightly more honest if you simply made a pit thread about polyamory rather than hijack someone else’s rant. I really have no problem with your ire about polys but would be much more interested in seeing a pit thread about just that.

[pool]

Breaking Benjamin - Polyamorous

The day has come to an end
The sun is over my head
My polyamorous friend
You got me in a mess of trouble again

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
The kids are going to find out sooner or later and when they do, they’re going to be devastated. Don’t kid yourself that they won’t. I’ve never heard of one kid who was happy to find out his mom is a slut or that his father is a pussy hound.
[/QUOTE]

Lest this comment be hijacked into a bunch of self-righteous accusations of name-calling, what I meant by it is that the parents have to be prepared for the very strong possibility that their KIDS will perceive their behavior this way. No matter how carefully the parents compartmentalize, rationalize or conceptualize this stuff, that doesn’t mean the kids are going to see it the same way and the parents should be aware that they could be setting their kids up for a pretty nasty emotional shock down the road.

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Lest this comment be hijacked into a bunch of self-righteous accusations of name-calling, what I meant by it is that the parents have to be prepared for the very strong possibility that their KIDS will perceive their behavior this way. No matter how carefully the parents compartmentalize, rationalize or conceptualize this stuff, that doesn’t mean the kids are going to see it the same way and the parents should be aware that they could be setting their kids up for a pretty nasty emotional shock down the road.
[/QUOTE]

So just what type of sexual morality do you expound in order to not ‘traumatize’ the children? And how do you want to enforce your morality on others?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan]
So just what type of sexual morality do you expound in order to not ‘traumatize’ the children? And how do you want to enforce your morality on others?
[/QUOTE]

I have no opinion on sexual morality (as long as everybody involved is a consenting adult) and no wish to enforce anything on anybody. Does that mean we should pretend that the sexual habits of parents can’t possibly have any negative emotional effect on their children?

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Does that mean we should pretend that the sexual habits of parents can’t possibly have any negative emotional effect on their children?
[/QUOTE]

Someone has to start by defining which sexual habits are detrimental to children. Then they’d best be prepared to back it up with evidence.

[WhyNot]

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
The kids are going to find out sooner or later and when they do, they’re going to be devastated. Don’t kid yourself that they won’t. I’ve never heard of one kid who was happy to find out his mom is a slut or that his father is a pussy hound.
[/QUOTE]

Yep, as I described in that other thread, I was devastated when I found out my father and step-mom were poly.

Oh, wait. No, not devastated. I said “a little freaked out”. I meant “surprised”. Shocked, even.

I got over it.

[SmartAleq]

[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan]
Someone has to start by defining which sexual habits are detrimental to children. Then they’d best be prepared to back it up with evidence.
[/QUOTE]

I think it’s fairly safe to say that having sex WITH children is detrimental, and that damned little else is. As long as parents of any stripe or number keep their sex life private (as it should be) they aren’t harming their kids in any way.

As a parent of grown children I can assure you that no matter how vanilla and mainstream your sex life is, at some point it will gross out your children. That’s part of the normal distancing kids go through as they mature–they have to think of their parents as “other” and part of that involves getting squicked out at the very idea that the old fogies still use their genitalia. Think of your grandparents screwing–see, it works.

I find nothing inherently deleterious in maintaining a polyamorous lifestyle as long as all the kids needs are met and the parents aren’t inappropriately involving or informing their kids of the intimate details of their private lives. By the time the kids are teens and are shuddering and squealing in horror at the very idea of their parents romping in the hay it won’t really matter how they romp or with whom, it will still traumatize the kids in the completely normal and expected manner that coming to terms with the concept “everybody fucks” always does.

In fact, I prefer the inherent honesty of the polys who have made rules and stick to them to the hypocritical “we’re married but cheat and then lie about it when we get caught” that the majority of people indulge in–and make no mistake, cheaters are the majority whether we like it or not.

[WhyNot]

[QUOTE=SkipMagic]
Sometimes, when they get angry at one another, one of 'em leaves–and then it’s a polygon.
[/QUOTE]

BTW, my husband’s reading the thread over my shoulder, and we both found this hilarious!

And thanks for your post, SmartAleq. I agree.