Meth addicts with kids

[Broomstick]

@Walter Windchill

I any case, the thread has calmed down considerably and we’ve gone nearly five minutes without anyone telling me to “fuck off,” so I guess it can stay open. I had no idea the OP would be so confusing/deceitful/upsetting the way it is phrased.

Well…

Perhaps you hold a minority position, but you were unaware of that fact.

Or perhaps you did not word the OP as well as you thought you had.

“Polyamorous” covers a lot of ground. MOST people I’ve known who use the word mean it more in the sense of plural marriage than “a series of one night stands”, “fuck buddies” or other implications of ephemeral “relationships”.

If it functions as plural marriage - that is, adults living in a long-term, stable relationship - I don’t see a hell of a lot of difference between that and an extended family with an aunt/uncle and perhaps the grandparents all living under the same roof as the nuclear family. It’s not like adults actually having intercourse in front of the kids is normal, advocated, or suggested by anyone here.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@nameless

Diogenes, perhaps I missed it, but on what do you base the assumption that “swinging” and/or polyamorous relationships will be detrimental to children?

I didn’t say it was detrimental to children, I said it could cause them to have a negative emotional response if they found out (about the swinging, I mean, not fixed poly relationships). Only the most deluded idiots would assume that their kids couldn’t POSSIBLY be emotionally affected by it. Hands up, how many people here would have been overjoyed to find out that mom was going down on strangers every saturday night. It’s not an issue of “morality” but priority. Maybe, just maybe people should think about putting the emotional well-being of their children ahead of their orgasms. Just because something isn’t inherently immoral doesn’t mean it’s the most wonderful choice you could make for you kids.

[Tapioca_Dextrin]

You might want to check out what you actually said before the backsliding started

@Diogenes the Cynic

The kids are going to find out sooner or later and when they do, they’re going to be devastated. Don’t kid yourself that they won’t. I’ve never heard of one kid who was happy to find out his mom is a slut or that his father is a pussy hound.

[Helen_s_Eidolon]

Dio, I bet a lot of kids would also be traumatized upon finding out one of their parents is gay, much in the same way. Should a parent suppress that, too?

In both cases, it seems to me, yes, there could be some initial upsettedness. But people get over that, especially assuming that they haven’t been raised to think polyamory is wrong which, one would assume, they wouldn’t be.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Tapioca Dextrin

You might want to check out what you actually said before the backsliding started

“Backsliding?”

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Helen's Eidolon

Dio, I bet a lot of kids would also be traumatized upon finding out one of their parents is gay, much in the same way. Should a parent suppress that, too?

In both cases, it seems to me, yes, there could be some initial upsettedness. But people get over that, especially assuming that they haven’t been raised to think polyamory is wrong which, one would assume, they wouldn’t be.

First, everybody needs to quit lunping polyamours relationships in wuth swinging. I’m only talking about swinging.

Secondly, no one has a choice about being gay, so that’s not a valid comparison.

[Hakuna_Matata]

@Diogenes the Cynic

I didn’t say it was detrimental to children, I said it could cause them to have a negative emotional response if they found out …Hands up, how many people here would have been overjoyed to find out that mom was going down on strangers every saturday night. It’s not an issue of “morality” but priority. Maybe, just maybe people should think about putting the emotional well-being of their children ahead of their orgasms. Just because something isn’t inherently immoral doesn’t mean it’s the most wonderful choice you could make for you kids.

well I might agree with you on some aspects of this—I also wonder this–Hands up, how many people here would be overjoyed to find out that Mom was going down on Dad every Saturday night? Do you think that might cause some negative emotional response?

I would think most adults keep their private sex lives from their children–whether they are poly, swinging or monogamous.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Hakuna Matata

well I might agree with you on some aspects of this—I also wonder this–Hands up, how many people here would be overjoyed to find out that Mom was going down on Dad every Saturday night? Do you think that might cause some negative emotional response?

This is a retarded comparison. Most kids would be icked out by it but not traumatized. They already know their parents have sex with each other, just like they know their parents go to the bathroom. It’s not the same thing at all. There’s no shock. It doesn’t completely alter their concept of how they viewed their parents’ relationship and their own sense of family. There would be no feeling of emotional betrayal. It would be nothing at all in comparison to finding out that mommy is blowing the neighbors.

I would think most adults keep their private sex lives from their children–whether they are poly, swinging or monogamous.

Sure they should, but there’s no way to guarantee they won’t find out anyway and they have to prepared for the fallout. No one HAS to go out whoring every weekend. It’s not an orientation.

I can’t believe I’m the only one who thinks that just MAYBE the kids would not fall over with joy at discovering something like this about their parents.

No one has really answered my question as to how they would have felt about discovering their own parents were into this stuff.

[Caridwen]

@Hakuna Matata

well I might agree with you on some aspects of this—I also wonder this–Hands up, how many people here would be overjoyed to find out that Mom was going down on Dad every Saturday night? Do you think that might cause some negative emotional response?

What does that have to do with anything?

I would think most adults keep their private sex lives from their children–whether they are poly, swinging or monogamous.

So then, anything and everything an adult does is OK as long as the kids don’t watch?

Would you feel the same way if Mom was a two dollar hooker as long as the kids didn’t actually watch her having sex in the next room?

**I’m not saying polyamorous relationships or even swinging are the same thing ** but it’s not a heck of a lot different than some of the off the wall analogies that some of you are coming up with like this gem–

Dio, I bet a lot of kids would also be traumatized upon finding out one of their parents is gay, much in the same way. Should a parent suppress that, too?

What an utterly ridiculous thing to say. What kind of leap do you have to take to make that statement?

[Hamadryad]

@Diogenes the Cynic

I can’t believe I’m the only one who thinks that just MAYBE the kids would not fall over with joy at discovering something like this about their parents.

No one has said that the kids would be ecstatic, charmed, thrilled, or anything else of the type, Mr. Hyperbole.

No one has really answered my question as to how they would have felt about discovering their own parents were into this stuff.

Well, when I found out part of the reason my parents split is that my (at the time doormat)* Mom got tired of kicking my Dad and our babysitter (!!) off the couch before my sister and I came downstairs in the morning. I didn’t know this until my early 20s. I thought, “Wow. Dad was a DICK.” Had it been a “swinging” situation - in which my mother knew about and was fine with my dad’s peckerdillos** - they wouldn’t have split and I wouldn’t think my dad was an asshole because I wouldn’t know about it. I certainly didn’t notice at the time.

• Had she not been a doormat, and my dad not taken advantage of this, it would not have happened.
  ** spelling intentional

[kushiel]

@WhyNot

Oh, come off it. How the heck do you expect my kid to sense the difference between my “friend” Tina, whom I’ve never slept with and never will, and my “friend” John, whom I’ve known for three years and slept with twice? Or are you of the opinion that a married person should have no friends of the opposite sex? OK, so what if I were bi? How would my kid know whether I was going out with my friend Judy to have sex at her place or go get coffee?

No one is “paraded” around the kids. I don’t ask my kid to “Go get Mama a condom, Sweetie, she’s havin’ fun tonight!” The stream - such as it is, more of a trickle, really - is “endless” only because this marriage works for us and we don’t see it ending anytime soon.

I’m picking on you here because you seem to be the most personally knowledgeable person in this thread on polygamy. What would happen if, say, your husband went out to the bar or something for the night with some buddies, and your friend Bernadette came over (hee, fun with theoretical names!), and the WhyKid went to bed, got up to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night or something and noticed you and Bernadette going into your bedroom and not coming out?

I know from what you said this wouldn’t happen in your family, but I have a gut feeling this happens in some open marriages. I want to know how a family would deal with this - a kid the age of WhyKid knows what happens behind closed bedroom doors. The difference between, say, that and monogamous gay marriage is that presumably the partner would be identified as being a significant other to the children at that point, and there is only one partner ever going in the bedroom with the parent.

[sinjin]

Ok I admit I didn’t read all the posts in this thread, but am I the only one who read this as “MATH” addicts with kids?

[Kimstu]

@DtC

“Backsliding?”

I think Tapioca meant “backpedaling”. As in, “pretending that you said something milder or less controversial than what you actually said”. Let’s review the bidding: first, WhyNot described her non-swinging poly marriage as follows:

@WhyNot

I think that mine is the style with the most (as someone else put it) effective “firewall” between my children and my sex life. Simply put, they don’t know, and they don’t care. We’ve had a “stable” relationshp for seven years now, we don’t introduce them to our lovers unless the lovers are part of our group of friends (and they’re not introduced as lovers, but as friends), we don’t allow any sexual activity to take place in our home unless it’s between my husband and I behind closed doors, we don’t go out so often that we infringe on family time, we do not stay out all night - we’re always home to wake up as a family in the morning. I can guarantee that unless I told you we were poly, you’d never guess it by living in my household for a year.

And you said:

@DtC

The kids are going to find out sooner or later and when they do, they’re going to be devastated. Don’t kid yourself that they won’t. I’ve never heard of one kid who was happy to find out his mom is a slut or that his father is a pussy hound.

Then came the backpedaling:

@DtC

Lest this comment be hijacked into a bunch of self-righteous accusations of name-calling, what I meant by it is that the parents have to be prepared for the very strong possibility that their KIDS will perceive their behavior this way.No matter how carefully the parents compartmentalize, rationalize or conceptualize this stuff, that doesn’t mean the kids are going to see it the same way and the parents should be aware that they could be setting their kids up for a pretty nasty emotional shock down the road. […]

I already made that distinction myself in my first post and made it clear I was talking parents with a lot of transient, purely sexual encounters, not full blown poly relationships. […]

I didn’t say it was detrimental to children, I said it could cause them to have a negative emotional response if they found out (about the swinging, I mean, not fixed poly relationships). Only the most deluded idiots would assume that their kids couldn’t POSSIBLY be emotionally affected by it. Hands up, how many people here would have been overjoyed to find out that mom was going down on strangers every saturday night. […]

First, everybody needs to quit lunping polyamours relationships in wuth swinging. I’m only talking about swinging. […]

I can’t believe I’m the only one who thinks that just MAYBE the kids would not fall over with joy at discovering something like this about their parents. […]

So you started out by telling a poly person (who had made it clear that her marriage is very stable and her sex life very private) that her kids “ARE going to find out sooner or later and WHEN they do, they’re going to be DEVASTATED” (emphasis added)

And you wound up claiming that you were only talking about how kids MIGHT react negatively (or at least “not fall over with joy”) IF they found out their parents were involved in PROMISCUOUS swinging with STRANGERS.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Kimstu

I think Tapioca meant “backpedaling”. As in, “pretending that you said something milder or less controversial than what you actually said”. Let’s review the bidding: first, WhyNot described her non-swinging poly marriage as follows:

And you said:

Then came the backpedaling:

So you started out by telling a poly person (who had made it clear that her marriage is very stable and her sex life very private) that her kids “ARE going to find out sooner or later and WHEN they do, they’re going to be DEVASTATED” (emphasis added)

And you wound up claiming that you were only talking about how kids MIGHT react negatively (or at least “not fall over with joy”) IF they found out their parents were involved in PROMISCUOUS swinging with STRANGERS.

I don’t see any “backpedalling” there. The screwing around isn’t “detrimental” per se* but the kids are probably going to have a negative emotional reaction if they find out about it. See the difference.
I also said in my first post that I was only talking about swingers. So there’s no revision there either. My post you quoted with all the caps in it was SARACASM, not backpedalling. I still think it’s the kind of thing that leads to kids cutting themselves or drinking like fish if they ever find out. If they never find out or don’t find out until they’re adults, they’ll probably be able to deal with it, but it shouldn’t be assumed they won’t find out when they’re still pretty young and the parents have to be ready to deal with it. I don’t care what anybody says with their unrealistic, horseshit, more tolerant than thou, ultra-liberalism, it’s got to be a kick in the balls for a child to find out something like that about their parents.

It’s not like I want to make it illegal or anything. I’d vote against any attempt to do so. But I’m not going to apologize for pointing out that if the children find out about it, it’s probably NOT going to be a very pleasant surprise.

[Kimstu]

@DtC

But I’m not going to apologize for pointing out that if the children find out about it, it’s probably NOT going to be a very pleasant surprise.

Maybe so, but that’s different from your original assertion that the kids certainly will find out about it and will then be devastated.

@DtC

I still think it’s the kind of thing that leads to kids cutting themselves or drinking like fish if they ever find out.

Exactly what “kind of thing” are you talking about, though? I could certainly see your point if the kid suddenly discovers that Mom and/or Dad is notorious throughout the neighborhood as an indiscriminate fuckbunny. But what prompted you to utter such dire predictions to WhyNot about her or her husband’s occasional private evenings out with a friend in the context of a stable, happy marriage and family life? Why would you assure her that “the kids are going to find out sooner or later, and when they do, they’re going to be devastated”? What gives you such confidence that this situation is necessarily going to be so disruptive?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Kimstu

Maybe so, but that’s different from your original assertion that the kids certainly will find out about it and will then be devastated.

Well, it should at least shouldn’t be assumed that they won’t and the parents should operate on the ssumption that they will.

Exactly what “kind of thing” are you talking about, though? I could certainly see your point if the kid suddenly discovers that Mom and/or Dad is notorious throughout the neighborhood as an indiscriminate fuckbunny. But what prompted you to utter such dire predictions to WhyNot about her or her husband’s occasional private evenings out with a friend in the context of a stable, happy marriage and family life? Why would you assure her that “the kids are going to find out sooner or later, and when they do, they’re going to be devastated”? What gives you such confidence that this situation is necessarily going to be so disruptive?

The question is why should there be any confidence that it won’t? Should it be assumed that there’s absolutely zero possibility of a severe emotional consequence for the kids? If there’s a 10 percent chance does that make it an acceptable risk? A 1 percent chance? What’s the justification for creating even a 1 percent risk? Is there an “orientation” that makes mommy and daddy just HAVE to fuck strangers is swingers’ clubs? Is that a hobby that’s really more important than ensuring a zero risk of emotional trauma for the children?

How would YOU have felt if you’d found out something like that at 10 or 12 years old? You have to look at it through the eyes of a child, not the yes of adults who have all their horseshit rationalizations worked out already.

[Caridwen]

I don’t know very much about WhyNot, but what I have read she seems like a very intelligent, honest person that cares about her family.
Before I read about polyamorous relationships here today I never really thought about them and as it doesn’t particularly concern me I still don’t.
But I do agree with** Diogenes** in thinking that kids could have a negative reaction if they found out.

WhyNot said her children don’t know about what type of lifestyle they lead. I don’t know enough about it to know if that’s true about most people involved in this type of lifestyle or not.

In the other thread she mentions a friend who’s children clearly do know about their parent’s lifestyle.

My friend’s marriage: it was quietly open until a few years ago, when they decided to move her lover into their house. They told their daughters that Mom was, in effect, taking a second husband (though not legally, of course.) The girls had just that summer met another poly family, so was reminded of “Steve and his wives” and had some frame of reference. I think they were 9 and 11 at the time.

From SageRats post-

In comparison, while the pursuit of individual self-development is a prime motivation of many adults entering into polyamorous relationships, a family consisting of a
group of adults has considerable potential to suppress individuality due simply to the nature of group dynamics. Groups larger than four may well require a shared ideology to maintain group cohesion, and the ideology can become the basis for coercive suppression of individual thinking and action. While the romantic love that often sparks polyamorous relationships can be a strong force in maintaining a focus on individual needs and development, the jealousy and negative feelings that arise from
sharing sexual partners can also produce a coercive environment that seeks to exert considerable control over all aspects of individual life. Although triads and foursomes may offer less cause for concern along these lines, polyamory does not support limiting the expansion of monogamy to just three or four adults. As polyamory is based on principles of “infinite love” and “love without limits,” every triad or foursome must be free to expand even more. This lack of limits in polyamory turns every triad and foursome, by themselves the more individual-friendly forms of polyamory, into a potential cult.

I don’t know if this is the ‘norm’ because I don’t know enough about it but in the case of WhatNot’s friend and the article, it’s not a case of someone slipping in while the kids are asleep. The partners live in the house and I assume share joint-parenting.

It’s not out of the realm of possibility that it might affect the kids. Who knows? But to call someone a pervert or a prude because they question whether kids might have a problem with this is a little off base.

[WhyNot]

@Diogenes the Cynic

Then why are you keeping it a secret from him?

Again, as I said initially, he is the type of kid who doesn’t want information he hasn’t asked for. It took he and I a long time to learn that, because I, as you may guess, am the opposite. I want to know everything about every possibility so I’m not blindsided by anything. He finds that anxiety producing and difficult. This includes things like what to expect post-surgery, what day is school starting (he asked me to give him a one week warning, but not to mention it before that this summer), what our schedule is for the whole weekend (he only wants to hear about it day-by-day, so he’s not thrown for a loop when plans change), what Grandma’s last stress test showed. In short, he has a very good grasp of how much he can handle, and will ask specific question which he wants me to answer and not offer a lot of other information until he asks for it.

As you can probably further guess, this took me a lot of trial and error to learn, as I tend to over-answer questions.

I’m surmising, based on what I know about his tolerance for information, that he doesn’t really want to know whose dick his mother is sucking. Call it a gut instinct, if you want.

I will never, ever lie to him about this. The second he says, “Mom, is something going on with WhyDad and Rebecca?” I will answer him honestly. The second he says, “Mom, did you ever think about having an open marriage like X’s?”, I will tell him what’s up.

I am not lying, I am not even going far out of my way to hide it. I am being discrete, and I am refraining from mentioning things he hasn’t asked about because that’s what he’s asked me to do for many other areas of his life.
Now, since the rest of your questions pertain to a lifestyle I know nothing about, I’ll assume they are there for someone else to answer.

@Caridwen

But I do agree with Diogenes in thinking that kids could have a negative reaction if they found out.

Now that I’ll agree with. Yes, kids **could **have a negative reaction if they found out their parents were poly. Absolutely. And, like every other rough patch in a kid’s life, I’d hope that the parents were there to offer love and support and keep communication open to help the kid deal with his feelings in a healthy way. Someday, someway, he’s going to be faced with the shock of finding out that the world doesn’t always work the way he thought it would. I do hope his parents help him deal with that.

I have never asserted that no kid ever could be troubled by being part of a “weird” family. I have simply asserted, based on my own experiences, that not every child is “devastated” when finding out her parents are poly.

[Kimstu]

@DtC

Is there an “orientation” that makes mommy and daddy just HAVE to fuck strangers is swingers’ clubs?

No, but AFAICT that’s not what WhyNot and her husband are doing.

@DtC

What’s the justification for creating even a 1 percent risk?

What’s the justification for parents’ doing anything at all that might have traumatic consequences for their kids? Presumably, the justification is the parents’ happiness and fulfillment, for the sake of which they’re willing to incur that slight additional risk to their children.

For example, there are parents who do things like small-plane flying or racecar driving that have a non-trivial risk of killing them. Losing a parent that way would be probably a hell of a lot more traumatic for the kids than finding out that their parents have had some responsible, consensual, private polyamorous relationships with personal friends. (I lost my own father when I was sixteen—not as a result of a plane or racecar accident, though—and believe you me, if I could have exchanged that experience for merely finding out that he and my mom had a healthy, happy polyamorous marriage, I sure as hell would have.)

But we don’t go around scolding those parents for running the risk of traumatizing their children for the sake of their own happiness. It’s generally accepted that parents are going to want to do some things for their own enjoyment that create a slight risk of producing “severe emotional consequence” for their children. Why is it such a big deal only when the behavior in question is sexual?

@Caridwen

But to call someone a pervert or a prude because they question whether kids might have a problem with this is a little off base.

I think that what got Dio called a “pervert” was his cavalier extrapolation from WhyNot’s self-described responsible and discreet conduct of her marital sex life to situations like “fucking strangers in swingers’ clubs” and “going out whoring every weekend” and “going down on strangers every Saturday night”.

Everybody else here seems to be talking about discreetly conducted private polyamorous relationships, either with permanent poly partners or trusted friends, while Dio insists on tsk-tsking about skanks and rakes constantly seeking irresponsible casual liaisons with strangers. Yes, we can all see how such people in such situations could well be setting their kids up for emotional trauma, but as it happens THOSE AREN’T THE SITUATIONS THAT MOST PEOPLE HERE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

Me either. As I said from my first post.