I never said that anyone has to sit their and take their lumps.
“Hey, that idea you presented was mine” is clearing the air.
“What you did could be seen as a very sexist thing” is a not so thinly veiled threat, even if not meant that way.
I also find it interesting that this backlash against #MeToo only happened when liberals and democrats (ex. Al Franken and the above woman) started getting hit by it. Also many gay men and lesbians have been hit like Kevin Spacey.
Yeah, it was fun to make fun of Trumps comments but when the same standards started hitting liberals and democrats - ouch! Suddenly its lets stop and think about this.
I read the article from the OP in yesterday’s paper and it does not describe my professional life in the least.
You really believe this? :eek: Hang on to faith and optimism as long as you can. I believe a boatload of disillusionment lies in your future.
No faith or optimism here. Disillusionment set in concrete.
Nor mine. But obviously it does for plenty of women.
Of all the ill-considered, ridiculous, petulant responses to #MeToo, this has got to take the half-baked cake.
Who do you think was “making fun” of Trump’s comments? Virtually every person I know on my side of the spectrum was saying, “Holy shit, what kind of monster is this guy?” On the other side, it was more like, “We must follow the Roger Ailes talking points… It’s just locker room talk… hahahah. Lock her up!”
But I think your actual point is that the poor widdle defenseless incompetent President thinks it is SO UNFAIR when everyone doesn’t love him for his serial lies, habit of sexual assault, and history of adultery.
Did the Republicans apply the same standard to Trump’s comments that they applied to Bill Clinton?
I suppose if one digs hard enough, they can find examples of both sides looking the other way with the behavior of a candidate or politician who supports their idealogy. But I don’t think there can be an equivalancy when you have one party (Republican) that tends to be overwhelmingly white male and supports an agenda that is objectively not favorable to women.
There’s a boatload of lies in my future. Very few disillusionment lies though. 
Probably not plenty of women thinking that.
It’s fine to clear the air, but I’m confused about the sexist angle. From what was described, there’s no reason to think he took credit because she was a woman. Maybe he steals all of his ideas from both men and women. Unless you’re the one who had the idea, you wouldn’t know where ‘his idea’ came from. I’m a man and I’ve had other men take credit for my ideas right in front of me as well.
Well, it’s the Sven test, and I don’t remember what Doper I stole that from.
Would you address Sven like that? If you wouldn’t, don’t address Mary like that.
Would you address Mary like that? If you wouldn’t, don’t address Sven like that.
Would you consider it appropriate if someone addressed your wife or daughter like that? If not, don’t do it.
Would you consider it appropriate if someone addressed your husband or son like that? If not, don’t do it.
I remember a piece by an Indian journalist where she started returning unknown men’s questions. The men were trying to be friendly, but they would do so by asking personal questions which they were not used to being asked themselves. They would ask her what did her husband do; she’d ask about their wives and they’d be completely taken aback. Often it turned out the guy didn’t have a wife; well, why do you assume I have a husband?
So now your confident "the truth will come out,: has been replaced by an equally confident “Well, the ODDS are the truth will probably come out?”
Don’t you think you might acknowledge that your original point is sort of weakened? Since there are odds involved and all, perhaps it’s appropriate to engage in a cost-benefit analysis.
Does this actually happen?
I have seen a thousand people complain that this will happen, that some poor, misunderstood man will be punished for perfectly honorable behaviour. I have never heard of it actually happening (the McMartin case isn’t at all the same thing.) It’s like being panicked about leprechauns.
Yeah, I realize I fucked up with bringing up sexism right off the bat to him. I could have left it out of the conversation but it was a knee-jerk reaction.
I used the example here as a way to show how I, as a woman, can do better and how he, as a man, can do better. I can do better by not jumping right to “sexism” (note that I did NOT accuse him of sexism, I pointed out that it was the sort of thing that happens to women because of sexism and could be construed as such, and I was careful to frame it that way.) He can do better by merely giving credit where credit is due, but also not immediately going on the offensive when the *idea *of sexism is brought up. I could have handled it differently but he could have also thought “I hear you. I realize this is something women have to deal with a lot. It was not my intent and I hope you know that. I will be more aware of it going forward.”
For what it’s worth, this happened a few weeks ago and we talked about it more afterwards, and we patched it up. We’re both the same age, and we’ve known each other socially for a couple years so we’re able to talk openly with each other. While I respect him as a peer in our positions, I do think he has some undesirable social opinions. And I’m sure he feels the same about me. I’m trying to do my best to understand his side on many issues and I hope that his respect of me as a peer will help him understand my side as well.
This is what I mean by the struggles of trying to do better.
This is a proper response.
Saying “Hey, asshole, you took credit for my idea” is much more productive than saying “Hey, asshole, it was sexist for you to take credit for my idea.”
One addresses the current issue while the other brings in all sorts of baggage.
(post shortened)
Why do you “absolutely” believe the women who are telling their stories of sexual harassment, violence, abuse, and even rape at work, school, and in other situations? Do you personally know these accusers? Why are they more believable than the accused?
Are women (and men) sexual harassed, violated, abused, and even rape at work, school, and in other situations? Some are, so the general answer is yes. But should everyone who makes these claims be believed without expecting them to provide some actual proof? History has also shown that there have been many proven cases of false claims.
What is the intention of this movement? I assume it’s to encourage more women (and men) to speak out about what they consider to be harassment. But that shouldn’t give accusers carte blanche, or cover, to make false claims. Each claim needs to be investigated on an individual basis. IMHO, of course.
Should businesses only hire women? I doubt that that will fix the harassment problem. Should businesses only hire men? That’s already illegal. Businesses will continue to hire men and women. Fear of lawsuits will force companies to provide co-existence training. Should men and women trust women and men? The answer is no.
(post shortened, underline added)
Is this an example of what is now to be considered harassment? The men were trying to be friendly by asking personal questions. How dare they!!! So, what’s your husband do? I don’t have a husband. So, what’s your wife do? I don’t have a wife. Well, that was fun. Should we get back to doing whatever it was we were doing, or should we each call a media outlet/lawyer and report each other for harassment?
There are two types of complaints that are worthy of discussion in the “innocent man,” case. In one, the complainant alleges behavior that is fabricated – that is, it’s a false allegation because the complainant knows the facts laid out are false.
The second is more complex: the complainant alleges a set of facts that are true, or substantially true, and argues that they constitute improper behavior, while the accused believes those same facts do not constitute any kind of genuine wrongdoing.
I think the first is worrisome (although I suspect rare) if the mood is, “Believe the accuser, no matter what.”
I think this point here is what is going to cause the most confusion due to the fact that not everyone has the same opinion on what is over the line.
Telling a co-worker “you look nice today” could be taken as hostile conversation or meaningless small talk, based not only on the recipient but also the person saying it.
I think:
[ul]
[li]The guy in the OP (refusing to fly while sitting next to a woman he knows?) is over-reacting to an absurd degree, and I have no sympathy for him.[/li][li]Many relations between men and women in both professional and social situations have become strained, confusing, and/or more difficult (for men primarily) than they used to.[/li][li]The world as it stands is not ideal.[/li][li]If strained/confusing/sometimes scary interactions result in fewer women being harrassed, raped, leaving jobs, industries, or the workforce all together, or even living with more comfort and control as a result of fewer men taking advantage of them, then it’s maybe a fine temporary state to be in.[/li][li]Every time I want to delve into the weeds about how maybe the current cultural movement isn’t always moving in the most productive/positive directions, I listen to a cacophany of men (and women) who, while they truly believe that there is a cultural change that needs to take place, vehemently argue for the status quo in all practical situations, and I generally choose to keep my trap shut. Because it’s clear that while people want change, they are unwilling to make changes themselves (which is true for many issues, not just this one), and if I have to choose between standing with the people who are pushing for change, or stand in opposition to them, I am going to choose the former. If I am choosing between devoting time and energy to empathizing with and amplifying the needs of the man who “recognizes that his decision to fly alone is a lost opportunity for his talented young co-worker, but right now, with everything that’s going on, he is not willing to risk a business trip alone with a woman — even if what he sees as caution strikes many women [and men] as discrimination,” and the woman who got left out of a project because the man she works with isn’t confident he can interact with her appropriately, well, I’ll pick the woman every time.[/li][/ul]