vast, vast, dammit! And I even previewed too… :smack:
Apparently you’ve never heard him talk.
I have reluctantly come to the same conclusion as the OP. Michael is just too good. But here’s one way I’ve managed to hold onto a little of my hatred for him: he cheats, or nearly so.
Several races ago there was an incident in which the Safety Car came out early in the race, while Micahel was leading. Michael came into the pits under yellow, and yet somehow was still in the lead when he came out! How was this possible???
Well, it turns out that Barichello was second, and he put a 30+ second gap between himself and Michael while the full course yellow was in effect, enough time for Michael to pit and stay in front.
If that’s not cheating it should be, in my book.
Or am I mistaken, and this is permitted under the rules? Have other teams done it?
I’ve been following F1 since about 1991, and I don’t remember a time when Coulthard was a serious championship contender. He’s consistently been bested by his teammates, and ElvisL1ves nailed it when he said that Coulthard lacks the aggresiveness to be a serious challenger. I can’t think of any memorable Coulthard race win… I don’t understand why Ron Dennis has even held on to him for so long, given that there are other drivers out there with as much or more talent, and also a with a will to win.
I also see Coulthard going to Jaguar, to replace Webber, who I think will jump over to Williams.
Re: Monaco, Schumacher clearly locked his wheels in the tunnel (what else caused all that blue smoke from his tyres?)… he simply went too fast behind the safety car, and had to brake hard while going round the curve.
Comma, I don’t remember the incident you’re referring to… do you remember which race and year? AFAIK, yellow flag or not, pitting will result in the driver dropping position. Having said that, Schumacher has blatantly pushed the limits of the rule book on a few occasions in order to secure the championship for himself… him taking out Damon Hill and almost taking out Villeneuve (both at the final race of the season in Suzuka) come to mind.
Heh. Damon Hill had the entire british media to do all his whining for him, mostly directed at Schumacher. He just sat around and smiled alot.
Comma, I don’t remember the incident you’re referring to… do you remember which race and year? AFAIK, yellow flag or not, pitting will result in the driver dropping position. Having said that, Schumacher has blatantly pushed the limits of the rule book on a few occasions in order to secure the championship for himself… him taking out Damon Hill and almost taking out Villeneuve (both at the final race of the season in Suzuka) come to mind.
[/QUOTE]
Choose from Britain 1994,Belgium 1994,Australia 1994,Jerez 1997,Britain 1998, Austria 2002, Indy 2002 for starters…
So how long before F1 changes rules to enhance competition?
What F1 needs is some Americans!
YAAAAAAA-HOOOOOOOO!
I believe the incident in question was at the 2004 USGP, after Ralf’s big crash.
It was perfectly legal, but (IMO) illustrates a major flaw in the Safety Car rules.
At the time of his crash, Ralf was running in around 6th position, some 10-20 seconds behind the leader. Michael was leading, and Rubens was in 2nd.
Ralf crashed in the final turn. At that moment, Michael and Rubens were not too far past the pit exit, in the vicinity of turns 1 and 2. The Safety Car was deployed fairly quickly, and it popped out of the pit exit and drove slowly waiting for the field to queue up behind it.
Micheal has most of a lap to travel to catch up with the SC. He slowed down some, while Rubens slowed down rather more. No one could pass Rubens due to the race being under Safety Car conditions. When MS ducked into the pits, the field (stacked behind RB) was a good deal behind him.
Rubens also gained in this deal, as he pitted as well. Due to the gap opened between him and MS, he didn’t have to “stack” behind MS in the pits and sit there waiting for service as he would have had he arrived on MS’ gearbox.
MS was further helped by the fact that Ralf’s debris field was absolutely littering the track. Takuma Sato was the highest-running car that did not duck into the pits, and so would normally have wound up leading the race when things settled down. However, TS had to slow down so profoundly while picking his way through the carbon shards that MS, going through the pits (and thus bypassing the debris field), was serviced and emerged still ahead of him.
MS was definitely the leading car when the field finally caught up with the Safety Car.
The FIA has been floating the idea of closing the pits when the SC is deployed (much like NASCAR) until the field is collected behind it. Under the current rules, there is still considerable incentive to haul ass right after the SC comes out if you’re headed for the pits.
At the 2003 Brazilian race, Fernando Alonso was absolutely flying (under SC conditions) when he passed through Mark Webber’s crash scene and smacked a wheel lying in the track, crashing hugely himself and ultimately bringing out a red flag. I believe the reason he was driving so briskly was to gain/save what track position he could, as he was planning on pitting.
While I’m talking about it, I should probably point out that this “free pitstop” happenstance has worked against MS on occasion this year, as well. Specifically at the most recent race - the 2004 British GP.
MS ran a two-stop fuel strategy, while Kimi Raikkonen was doing a three-stopper. MS was kicking butt (as usual); with 20-ish laps to go MS was some 20 seconds up on KR, and he was fueled to the finish while KR had a stop left to make. The situation was very well in hand…
…until Jarno Trulli’s big wreck, which brought out the Safety Car. Raikkonen immediately pitted, and emerged still in 2nd place (Rubens, in third, pitted as well and retained that position). Now the situation had changed dramatically: KR was fuelled to the finish and he was right on MS’ butt.
There were two lapped cars physically between MS and KR on the restart. KR dispatched them relatively quickly, and spent some time right on MS’ gearbox in the next few laps but ultimately dropped back a bit. In the post-race press conference, MS opined the presence of those lapped cars had really helped him, as his tires had cooled and it took a bit to get 'em back; had KR started right behind him, he may well have managed to get by.
Safety Car deployments make it possible for significant gains or losses of position/time to take place through opportunism and simple luck. If one happens at just the right time, it’s entirely possible for a quick-thinking team to basically get to make one of their pit stops “for free.” The important part is to do it in the mad scramble between the SC deployment signal (at which time on-track passing becomes illegal) and the actual queueing up of the field behind the SC.
brad d nailed the USGP incident, but what about passing Alonso on the recon lap in France???
How the hell did he get away with that?? Many years ago that happened (sorry, can’t recall who was involved now, but I do remember it happened) and the driver was given either a “stop and go” or a “drive-thru” penalty.
Actually, being a huge Ferrari fan, I can’t bitch too much about Schumacher.
hm… He’s hot and filthy rich. Remind me again why he needs to talk?
Back to Schumie. I think he sold his soul to the devil, who taught him how to drive race cars real good.
If we’re thinking of the same incident, that was Schumacher, too. :mad:
I wasn’t following F1 at the time, but Speed Channel is basically rebroadcasting the races of the 1994 season (in 1-hour highlight form) during this year. It’s actually quite cool. Anyway…
1994 British GP at Silverstone. Michael Schumacher was with Benetton, and had won six of the seven races run so far that year. Some argue that his dominance had something to do with what happened - on this I have no opinion.
Damon Hill was on pole in the Williams, and MS was second. When the formation lap began, MS powered past DH and “led” the field for quite some distance before letting Hill retake the lead somewhere during the lap. Once the field formed up, somebody (Coulthard?) suffered a stall, so the start was aborted and they did the whole thing again. On the second formation lap, MS did much the same thing as before.
According to Speed Channel’s David Hobbs, nobody thought much of it at the time. It was technically against the Sporting Regulations, but it was nevertheless frequently done to no consequence. I remember observing pretty much the same thing happening on the formation lap of that year’s season-opening Brazilian GP, and no one batted an eye.
(Here’s where I get fuzzy, because I managed to miss the middle part of Speed’s broadcast.) Some distance into the race, the stewards announced that Schumacher was being assessed a stop-go penalty (10 sec?). Apparently the message given to the team was very vaguely worded, and no one at Benetton could figure out just what it was MS had done. Team officials ordered MS to stay out on track while they argued with the stewards.
This took some time, during which the time limit for serving such penalties (3 laps from the announcement?) came and went. Soon thereafter, the stewards raised the stakes by black-flagging MS. I believe this basically means “Get your ass into the pits NOW or we’ll stop scoring you.”
Benetton officials were still arguing with race stewards, and (I think) on their instructions MS remained out on the track. Several laps later, MS came into the pits and served a stop-go penalty. He went on to finish 2nd (Hill won).
After the race, Schumacher was disqualified. I believe the reason given was for ignoring the black flag, rather than the original formation lap offense.
Soon thereafter everybody involved got to go before the Big Powers That Be. I believe the chief steward had his license suspended for 1 year, and somebody else (race director?) was demoted. The FIA was less than pleased with the race officials’ conduct.
MS was also given a two-race ban, which he served later in the season after losing an appeal. Again, I think the real source of the FIA’s ire was ignoring the black flag, rather than passing on the formation lap.
Or at least, the story goes something like that.
So Brad, do you think that Barachello’s holding back was not intentional? When I realized what had happened, I assumed it was a purposeful team strategy.
I strongly suspect that it was deliberate. Slowing down more then MS helped Rubens, too, and since Ferrari is normally pretty quick on the draw in situations like that it’s hard for me to believe that it was an accident.
In the post-race press conference Rubens didn’t really address it specifically, but he did say:
Hardly conclusive, but if I read that in the proper way I can infer intent.
I seem to recall reading somewhere else (can’t recall where) that Rubens tried to claim he slowed way down due to confusing instructions from the team, and that he was just trying to sort things out. It sounded a bit hollow to me, but who knows.
Speaking of bending pit rules, I remember a race where micheal was given a stop-go (or drive-through) penalty 3 laps from the end of the race, which he happened to be leading. He completed the final lap inside the pit lane, thus not breaking the 3-lap rule, and won the race in the bargain.
Didn’t think it was very fair, but I’m a fan so that sentiment didn’t last too long
Ah, an F1 thread! Excellent. Let the opining begin! What? Oh, I see you lot already started. 
First off, let’s set a few guidelines that shall be the framework in which my remarks below are to reside:[ul][li]Michael Schumacher is, bar none, the most talented racing driver that ever lived.[]MS can also be a cunning asshole, who won’t refrain from dirty tricks if sheer driving speed won’t cut it. Doesn’t make him unique in this, and it doesn’t make him a horrible person as it’s part of the game, IMHO, but it’s still true.[]Ferrari, and expecially Ross Brawn, are the absolute kings of strategy, putting erstwhile competitors to shame.[*]As long as MS drives for Ferrari and has a docile teammate like Barichello, it’s virtually impossible to stop him from raking in world title after world title. Seeing how fit he is at 35, I think he’ll still be capable of winning the title in a Ferrari at 40. He’s the best, ever, period.[/ul]Now then. On with some responses. :)[/li][quote]
By contrast, may I just note that Juan Pablo Montoya is possibly the single most whiny bitch that F1 has ever had, in my recollection? This is a considerable achievement given the competition, including as it does Jacques Villeneuve and other inflated egos too numerous to mention.
[/quote]
I’m with you on JPM being a whiny bitch - albeit a talented one, if a tad uneffective at employing his talent. But Jacques Villeneuve? Yeah, he was a loudmouthed bastard, but he also was a driver who would take the blame for his own mistakes (which he certainly had). He could take what he dished out. He was always tough but fair on his teammates, would have won the title in 1996 if Frank Williams hadn’t decided to send Damon Hill home with a title, and to this day is one of my favourite drivers. He made the mistake of moving to start-up outfit BAR in 1998. The fruits of his work are only now beginning to show - I’m sure Jens and Takuma appreciate it. Which in itself indicates JV’s biggest flaw: not a good test and development driver. Took him 6 years to get BAR where MS had Ferrari within 2: near the top.
Hmmm, I’m not so sure. As of late, plenty of drivers have made it to F1 without completing the steps that were deemed so necessary in the 80’s and early 90’s. Apart from paying hacks, of course, which the early 90’s saw plenty of. Button graduated straight into F1 from F3000, Alonso skipped from Formula Renault (I think) to Minardi, to test driver for Benetton, to race driver, winning a GP in only his second competitive year. Raikkonen was another quick riser, as was Heidfeld (even though his rise seems to have stopped, a lot).
It was PLENTY clear what MS did. He was “pacing”, which is his prerogative as the #1 car behind the security Mercedes (by which I don’t mean Coulthard’s car ;)). Yeah, pacing took out Jenson in Monza in 2000 - rookie mistake. But here? In the tunnel at Monaco? Bad move, Mike - I can’t blame JPM for not anticipating that. It’s not like F1-cars have brake lights (yes, I do know of the spray/fog lights, but that’s different, and those aren’t in use at Monaco when the sun’s out). Schumacher’s mistake, all the way.
Slight correction: MS trying to take JV out happened at the 1997 European Grand Prix, held at the Portuguese Estoril GP that year. And yeah, Schumi’s known for pushing the limits when it comes to rules. As for the 2004 Indy SC/pit stop situation: meh. That’s just smart driving, IMHO. No rules were broken or even skirted. If FIA wants to change that, then indeed they need to adopt similar SC rules as CART already has.
Sure thing. As soon as you locate any talented ones, ship them on over. 
Seriously now - with Michael Andretti being the last American to drive in F1 for half a fucked-up season in 1993, Americans don’t have much of a repuation at the moment. Obviously it’s possible for drivers to come out of American series such as INDY and CART and become competitive F1 drivers (JV, and to an extent JPM), but the “washed-up-F1-driver-who-races-for-the-title-in-CART” phenomenon is much more common. Mansell, Brundle, Alex fuckin’ Zanardi… only the first of that list was ever a moderately OK F1-driver (yeah, he took the tile, in the most electronic F1 year ever), the second was never more then a bit player, and the latter was a complete embarassment during BOTH his F1 stints. Conclusion: American series are not as good a warm-up for F1 than the other way around. That’s not to say that there are no talented American drivers: of course there have to be. But I do believe that the steep learning curve F1 offers, combined with America’s rather insular look at sports in general is the reason we basically haven’t had an honest to God FAST Yank in F1 since, well, Mario Andretti in the late 70’s, really.
OK, more responses later - I have to go now.
Exactly. People (particularly the British press, it seems) often seem to forget that a lot of the dirty tactics employed by Schumacher were often employed to even greater effect by the likes of Senna, Prost and Mansell. I don’t think I’ve seen a single Mansell race where he didn’t fishtail off the line to block the car behind him into the first corner, often pushing said car towards a wall or grass. And who can forget the 1989 and 1990 Japanese GPs?
Hmm, I recall Schumi trying to punt Jacques, but I clearly remember it being at Jerez. His explanation? He saw Jacques brake late into the corner, decided he was going off the track, and was trying to help him stay on it in the spirit of sportsmanship. That was one of my favorite sports excuses of all time, and one of the things that made him fun to hate.
Re American drivers, for them the money and babes are in NASCAR, not open-wheel racing. The best of them just have no reason to consider a different career path. A couple of years ago, when Tony Stewart moved from IRL after an Indy 500 win, he made it clear that he thought the Winston Cup circuit was a step up. You won’t see F1 being more than a niche sport in the US as long as NASCAR is dominant, which it will be as long as it retains its image as *the * American racing spor, and you won’t see American drivers even think of it as long as F1 remains a niche sport. You won’t see American racing teams even think of switching as long as it takes 10x+ the cash to run in F1, either - Minardi, the cheapest and most pathetic F1 team, spends something like 5x the cash to run 2 drivers as the top NASCAR teams spend to run 5 of them.
Yeah, but that’s because F1 is so much more technology-intensive than NASCAR. The vehicles in NASCAR are insanely simple compared to F1 cars. Not a value judgement, BTW, but it is true. It’s a far more affordable sport. I happened to be in the US last week, and caught a part of a NASCAR race. It was at Chicagoland, I believe. It’s not that it isn’t exciting - there’s plenty of passing manoeuvres. But I honestly can’t see who’s a good driver and who isn’t. I’m pretty sure there are horsepower differences, set-up differences, et cetera, but to the NASCAR newbie watcher (who may otherwise still be an avid race fan) it looks like a slipstream match, with cars just changing positions lap after lap after lap. Turning left, and left, and left. To me, it’s boring, but then, I’ve heard a lot of people who say F1 is boring as hell, so what do I know.
BTW, you were right - it was Jerez, Spain. Don’t know why I had Estoril in mind. Possibly because a year earlier, Jacques Villeneuve performed the passing manoeuver of the decade at that Portuguese track, when he overtook Schumacher on the outside of a high speed corner. :eek: