Would it really surprise you to learn that people of color are disproportionately more likely to be assumed to be of the no-managerial? Especially when compared to white males?
It is this kind of default skepticism that I don’t get at all. What is your basis for saying this kind of thing happens to “everyone”? Should we assume everything happens to everyone equally now, no matter how unlikely?
I know exactly what the “alternative” is. Stop acting on assumptions and try to think before speaking. If you walk into an office and see a black woman walking around in a business-like manner, ask her if she’s the right person to talk to about your concern, rather than asking “Is this boss in?” If you’re new to a workplace and you have noticed the printer has run out of cartridge ink, don’t assume the Latino woman in your office is the “go to” person for that kind of thing.
When someone tells you, “This is a shitty thing that happens to me a lot”, don’t reflexively jump into “B-b-b-but that happens to me too!” mode. You don’t have to say anything other than “Yeah, that sucks.” And then maybe the next time you find yourself making certain assumptions about person, you will stop yourself from saying something stupid. You don’t have to do anything more than that to be a part of the solution rather than the problem.
As noted more than once I think the vacation/short trip experience is kind of the crux of the debate. What’s amusing in a brief dose can get pretty tiring when you can’t get away from it. even sven was in China rather longer and immersed a bit deeper.
My first name, which I share with a very distantly related loony inventor, has in an American context been mistaken for a girl’s name my entire life. Does it bug me? Generally no, I’m good-natured about it because I know it is an easy mistake ( not even really a mistake, per se ). But every once in awhile I feel just half-a-second of annoyed twinge. And compared to the kind of things other posters in this thread have put up with, my little issue is beyond trivial. Even well-meaning questions get galling eventually.
The point–which is still being missed–is that being white makes this interrogation a different experience than when you’re not white. You might be the only white guy around when you visit Japan, but that doesn’t erase the confidence and security that you’ve built up after decades of living as a white man in a society that treats white males as the norm. So of course “where are you REALLY from” will affect you differently.
Here is a good analogy. Fat women often hear “You have such a pretty face”. They hear if often enough that it smarts like a back-handed compliment, because the implication is that their face is the only thing about them that is attractive. It is a microaggression in the sense that it is a nice compliment while at the same time serving as an attack on the woman’s body. But because it is socially risky to react negatively to a veiled insult of this nature, there’s the added insult of having to pretend like all is groovy. But inside the woman is probably screaming “Why not just say I’m pretty? How hard is that?”
Thin women may receive the same compliment, and it won’t register as an insult at all. Why? Because their weight isn’t stigmatized and because the compliments they receive will not be disproportionately face-focused.
Do not do to others that which you find distasteful unto yourself.
You don’t like when others tell you what you should and should not be offended or bothered by or what is going on in your head. But you presume to tell someone, based just on skin color, what is going on in their head, what his or her experience is, and what (s)he has a right to be upset over.
In west-suburban Chicago we don’t bother asking 'cuz, well, yeah.
As a straight, white, middle-class male I can only say that, from my observations, “shit gets old,” where your reaction is a heavy sigh, is a good definition of micro-aggressions. Wanting to punch the person in the face is a reaction to a proper aggression.
Short-sleeved, white shirt, with a tie. Like Dilbert. I usually know my way around the store, so I just help them. If they figure out I’m not a manager, I enjoy their embarrassment. It’s good to be king.
Actually, it’s good to have my social status upgraded by their prejudices. Something that doesn’t happen for people outside the dominant group.
I don’t see where you with the face has told anyone how they should or should not feel. Nor has she downplayed anyone’s feelings. If she was doing this, she’d deserve the “Not fair” comment, because then she’d be a big ole hypocrite.
What she is saying is that everyone’s feelings (or lack thereof) have a context. A white person who isn’t bothered by “Where are you REALLY from?” is not more compassionate and self-actualized than a non-white person who is. Just like a skinny chick isn’t more compassionate or self-actualized than a fat person just because the former isn’t bothered by comments about her weight. When someone says “B-b-b-but that happens to me all the time and I just laugh!”, do they ever stop and ask themselves why this might be the case? Or are they just assuming that the other person is “wrong” somehow?
A year or so ago, I posted on a message board in a “lecturing” tone to a group of ladies (mostly black, a lot of them overweight) about how stupid it is to get worked up about media representations of beauty. I was all “You gotta love yourself, people!! Stop expecting corporations to do something you should be doing yourself!!” And I got a ton of shit for being so preachy. And at first I was mighty butthurt. But then I realized why my post had provoked such a reaction. It was clear to all those women that I was posting from a place of privilege. When black women are shown on TV in a positive light, they tend to look like me. Slender, light-skinned, curly hair (as opposed to kinks). I can go to just about any drug store and find cosmetics targeted at “natural beige” complected skin tones. My lack of baggage in the looks department is not due to me being a guru sage on the mountaintop. It’s due to the fact that no one has ever called me a “nappy-headed ho” or likened me to an animal because I have a big butt. When the day comes when someone is that nasty to me, maybe THEN I can get up on a soap box and lecture folks on what they should and should not do with their feelings.
I don’t understand the problem with being asked where I am “really” from. In fact, I pretty much volunteer that information anyway. If someone asks me where I am from, I usually say, "I am from Chennai, my dad is from , and my mom is from ".
Being Indian and being somewhat shy, I cherish people asking me stuff, even somewhat offensive or nosy questions, so long as no malintention is present. I would feel like an other if you (generic you) weren’t even a little bit curious about my background.
I got the “you speak English so well” comment from a prospective landlady once (in Pittsburgh). I was young and naive then, I took it at face value – as a compliment. The funny thing is: my language is fluent enough but I am still an average “ESL guy”, so she must’ve had a real low expectation of Indians. I tried to make it a teaching moment for her and mentioned that lots of Indians get educated in English.
It took me a few years to work out that maybe she was actually taking a dig at me. Well, there’s no way of knowing her true intentions now…
For me, I try to not assume I know what information a person is actually looking for. When most people ask me “Where are you from?”, they are genuinely curious about my hometown or what city I recently moved from. So it would be strange to answer “I am the descendent of west African slaves and Scot-Irish ancestors” to such a question. I know I’d get more than a few :rolleyes: if that was my automatic reply.
The way I see it, giving people the answer that makes the most sense for the question they’re asking is not being difficult or evasive. It just reduces the chance that I will embarrass myself.
Really? I don’t see how it’s disputable to say that whites enjoy a status that sets them apart from other demographics, and that status protects them against the vulnerabilities that are specific to being non-white. I mean, it doesn’t make sense for us to take it as a given that being a minority comes with certain negatives but then act as this doesn’t directly translate to the opposite for whites.
I’m at a professional conference this week. 90% of attendees are white. In the breakout sessions I sat in today, I was often the only black person in the room. I’ll be speaking tomorrow and guess what? I will probably the only black person on the podium. For the entire day.This is pretty much how it always is in my line or work, and it’s laughable to think I can’t draw any conclusions from my own experiences in this environment.
Given all the assumptions floating out there about black inferiority in all things STEM related, would it be crazy for the average black person in my position to feel a wee bit self-conscious in a way that your average white person will not be? Because the latter are surrounded by people like them all the time, and don’t regularly have their intellectual prowess dissected or debated? Of course it wouldn’t crazy.
Likewise, it is not crazy for ethnic minorities to be annoyed by “where are you REALLY from?” All I’m pointing out is the obvious: white privilege is why “where are you REALLY from?” translates differently when a white person gets this vs a minority. If you want to call this characterization “not fair” because you think I’m telling a white person what they should or should feel, ok whatever dude, you win. I’m not going to argue myself purple in the face over this when I need to prepare for the talk I’m giving tomorrow.
My point about China is that out of 200 odd expats I knew who spent two years in inland China, I can’t think of any that didn’t at some point get fed up with the commentary. Some took it better than others, but I’d venture 100% of them would have strongly preferred to not be reminded of their status as “other” every time they went outside. It bothered people enough that it was a common topic of conversations, and occasionally people would quit and to home because of it-- an option that people don’t have when they get this crap in their own country.
You may think you’d be cool with it. You may have found it amusing while on vacation. But to deal with it day after day, as a part of the fabric of your everyday life-- in my experience, it bugs pretty much everyone.
In other words, its not that American minorities are exceptionally touchy, it’s that this stuff is objectively obnoxious.
Class privilege is another good illustration. How easy is it to look down on low-income people who use their money to splurge on conspicuous displays of status, like designer bags and shoes, instead of living more modest lifestyles. I pat myself on the back for buying my clothes from Target and I wear my raggedy loafers like badges of honor. Aren’t I a superior person because I don’t have the need to show off how money I make by wearing flashy clothes?
Um, no. In fact, it’s almost as if I am showing off how money I make by wearing the clothes and shoes I do. In the circles I travel, no one is going to assume I’m a homeless person, a convict, or a welfare recipient. So my style of dress reflects my confidence in my own status relative to others. I have nothing to prove to anyone by the clothes I wear.
Thus, if a stranger asks me where I got my cheapo shoes, I don’t mind saying Payless or whatever, and I don’t assume they might be throwing shade on my class status. But if I was poor, questions about where I purchased my cheapo shoes would likely trigger insecurities and embarrassment. I might even feel compelled to lie or play dumb.
I don’t think there is a truly anonymous way to report micro-aggressions. If someone calls you the N word, and you report it, and they get punished, it shouldn’t be hard at all for them to figure out it was you who reported it.
Cant’t we just all just get along and take responsibility for our own actions as well as our reaction to other people’s actions?
Today is my birthday and that is my one best wish.
I have been called a racist a number of times on this board and elsewhere but the evidence suggests otherwise. I received over 100 well wishes for my birthday and 75% of those were from black friends that I grew up with. I haven’t seen most of them for over twenty years but they stand by my family because we were always there for anyone in need. My mother is one of the foremost education experts in the world that got her start teaching some of the most impoverished black children in the U.S. under emergency certification. My grandfather was the president of the school board in charge of integrating the segregated black and white schools in 1980 (you probably don’t think that was possible based on the bullshit you read in the history books but I assure you that is 100% true).
My personal prejudice isn’t towards minorities at all. However, I truly hate naive and uppity white people and will fight to smack their smug face into the ground metaphorically if given the chance. They really don’t know what they are talking about with a few exceptions like even sven that actually lived in a foreign environment and have experience to back it up. I have no interest in hearing from white housewives, house-husbands and college students at selective universities. I have done that and their opinions are almost universally vapid, ineffective and naive beyond belief.
That is an extremely important distinction that most people do not understand. Just because you consider yourself a liberal doesn’t mean you are actually nice to anyone or improve the world at all just by the grace of your judgmental opinions. You actually have to be nice to people in person consistently. They will respond in kind no matter who you are or where you are in the world.
Genuinely good people are kind to everyone they encounter unless given good reason to feel otherwise and do not walk around with a chip on their shoulder. That is the true goal - not some bullshit combination of social policies that will inevitability result in unintended consequences and lead us away from the larger goal.
In summary - be kind but also be understanding when other people don’t always live up to your personal ideals because you won’t either.
I’m finding these threads fascinating, but awkward. I don’t want to be accused of making it all about me, but as a lifelong member of the dominant group any attempts to put myself in, say, Monstro’s shoes will fail because I have not experienced anything like what she has. What I can do is try to understand her complaints, take them to heart, and try to not offend. In other words, I can sympathize, but I cannot empathize. I can easily avoid saying most of the hurtful things mentioned in this thread because they would never occur to me, and others, in order to satisfy my raging curiosity, I hope I would phrase more delicately and only ask of someone I knew well. However, I know I will sometimes fail because I’m a doofus, and I suspect I’m on some people’s ignore list because of past failures to live up to my shining ambitions for myself.
What more can straight, white, American-born, English-speaking, middle-class males do? I feel like some people, like the people promoting that college micro-aggression tribunal, automatically view me as an offender, and their views of what I say will be colored by their prejudices.
I don’t think that last part is true. I’m not straight, but I’m all the other things in your list. Most people understand the difference between when you’re unconsciously reflecting the dominant culture and when you’re being an individual jerk. Most of us make a bunch of mistakes out of ignorance, but the difference is some of us are listening and trying to make it better, while others are digging in their heels and insisting nothing is wrong.
Yes, really. As confused as my thinking can get on where the lines get drawn between the overlapping concepts I brought up in the op, this much seems clear to me.
Is it acceptable for others to tell you what sort of internal experience you must be having because it seems to them that you should be?
Is it acceptable for you to be told what you actually mean when you say “X” and to be told that this other person knows your intended meaning better than you do?
No?
Then tread carefully in the converse as well.
Explaining that you, and why you, experience various comments and behaviors a certain way is valid. Your experience must be respected and basic manners requires that one should at least make a reasonable effort to avoid engaging in behaviors that will cause offense when possible once one realizes that such is the case. I don’t have to understand why frizzy hair can be a sensitive subject to respect that it is and to behave accordingly.
Good luck with your talk!
Why does every single action have to take place equally between every single group, regardless of circumstance, context, history, and positions of power? “Why don’t you treat that Senator in 100% the same way as you do the guy who does your dry cleaning?” I mean, if the sexes were already treated equally, then yeah, maybe you’d say the same thing to boys, but they aren’t, so you don’t. Is this a difficult concept? If so, I don’t get why.
I don’t know you all that well, and don’t remember much about your posts or posting history, so I have no opinions one way or another about you and your beliefs on race, but you DO realize that you just used the old “I have plenty of black friends” claim, don’t you?
To those who are white and American and think this kind of stuff is funny or no big deal, imagine you move to a foreign country like Trinidad & Tobago where less than 1% of the population is white and most of that 1% is concentrated in certain wealthy or expat self segregated areas way out of your grasp money wise, and while the country is racially diverse except for the wealthy areas it is mostly racially “segregated”. So you’re living in a mostly black area with your local wife and your child, after five+ years would it not annoy that:
You can’t stand on the sidewalk where you live without cars passing slowing down and everyone rubber necking.
People you pass on the way to your house who aren’t from the area will gawk and stare like they are seeing bigfoot, make loud comments about what is this white man doing here? People seem compelled to loudly comment wow you’re not black, wow that is amazing! Isn’t that something, not black huh now I’ve seen everything!
Act like it is an amazing miracle of nature that whoa let me get this straight you two had sex and you had this child? Oh wow man this…is like blowing my mind man I need more time to grasp this.
Have a taxi driver insist this is odd, insist you admit it is odd, you agree ok it is odd and?..
Because race and skin tone is an important part of social interaction people almost feel uncomfortable dealing with you with any ambiguity, they want to know what race you are and your wife and this is your kid. Is that your son? Oh ok, and his mother is she black? Oh ok, and is she a darkie or reds? Oh ok, and you’re white or Syrian? Where are you from? Oh Texas, nah then you must be Mexican blood, probably you don’t even know it.:rolleyes:
Dudes will ask you so you don’t like white women at all, wow how did you guess man.:rolleyes:
I was buying loose cigarettes from a cart vendor, I was paying the same asking price as everyone but one day he goes in an offended tone he can’t sell them to me so cheap anymore since I’m white and rich, I pointed out I am paying the asking price and never returned to that ass. I have a whole list of businesses I mark off for dumb ass comments like this or merchants trying to get extra money. I have taxi drivers try to swindle me thinking I’m a tourist.
I’ve left out the straight up nasty comments since they aren’t microaggression, mostly older people yelling at us in public about how my wife thinks she is uppity, we’re back in slavery days because us looking at furniture with my son riding on my shoulders is so reminiscent of slave rape I guess. How horrible white people are, how horrible white people’s kids are, it goes on and on. This bothers my wife WAY more than it bothers me BTW, she gets upset about attracting attention while I don’t give a crap and see the other people as wrong period.
I could write a notebook full of this shit and more, my point is there is no way anyone white American or other would not be annoyed by this garbage.
There apparently was in the past a single other white person living in the area I live in, he was from a local white rich family and a rasta and he moved in with his girlfriend and their daughter when his family disowned him. They ended up leaving to this shit before I ever lived here, and all I know is what people say about them. But yes it certainly was sticking it to THA MAN by harassing that guy.:smack:
EDIT:“Such a shame your son inherited hard hair” and tons of other strange kinda self hating comments I forgot to mention.
