middle school principal sex change - relevant to job duties?

Great Debates
1

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-sex29.html

This article discusses a middle school in a Chicago suburb (not mine), where the principal, previously a man, returned to school this fall as a woman.

Wondering if you felt this is at all relevant to whether the principal should continue in her prior position? How would you respond if your child attended the school?

This would bother me a bit. On the one hand, I have no difficulty with this individual taking whatever steps they feel necessary to address their gender identity issues. However, I am not certain that an indvidual with such gender identity issues is necessarily the optimal candidate to be in as important a position as a middle school principal.

It strikes me as somewhat problemmatic that the individual addressed their personal issues in a manner that forced other people to make them an issue in their home, without choosing what they considered the best time to broach this type of subject. I sympathize with the parent in the story who resented the fact that he had to discuss gender reassignment with his 11 year old. Might be less of an issue if it were a high school.

As a taxpayer, it might trouble me that the school district had to hire a clinical psychologist to help handle this. Also, why did the principal only inform the school board of this a couple of weeks before school started?

I believe it might have been appropriate to reassign the principal to a new school.

2

Well, I have no problem (theoretically) with either gender re-assignment or with explaining it to my child. There are things in the world that are sometimes difficult and/or uncomfortable. But they’re there, and I have no problem discussing them with the kids.

Well, I try not to have any trouble discussing them with the kids…

The only aspect of it that I might find troubling is the “tax-funded” aspect, as described. Other than that, no big deal.

3

Sex is not relevant to duties. If one feels/knows that one is not of the sex at birth and the technology permitting, there is no reason that one should be discriminated against for changing it.

Why “punish” said principal with a job relocation. She obviously felt comfortable at that given school where she has some rapport with the students already. Middle school aged children are cretins regardless of the sexual identity of the administrators. I doubt that the kids will act much differently amongs themselves than they did before. They will hate anything that challenges their worldview but are unlikely to do anything about it. Like most kids.

“However, I am not certain that an indvidual with such gender identity issues is necessarily the optimal candidate to be in as important a position as a middle school principal.”

Why? I don’t think there is a problem. The person obviously knew who she was so well to have the problem fixed. More likely she knows herself better than most other individuals here and did some deep psychological evaluations before having the surgery. I believe that most transexuals have to go through a long period of living as the opposite gender as well as many years of psychotherapy. The parental concerns about the principal confusing the sexual identity of their children is moot. Children know what their sexual identity is for the most part and though they may not be comfortable with who they are they know how to fix it. It is admirable that this principal will be a role model for other transexuals that she may oversee not a burden of sexual confusion.

“I sympathize with the parent in the story who resented the fact that he had to discuss gender reassignment with his 11 year old.”

Again, why? They should discuss sex with their kids anyway to make them responsible about sex. It is irrelevant if the parents feel uncomfortable about talking about real life sexual issues with their kids. They should do it anyway. Also, even if the parents disagree they don’t know what their children’s sexual identity is necessarily. Gay children learn early what is considered bad and what to hide. I am sure it is doubly so with transexual children. Openness, honesty, and compassion are more important here than personal feelings as one can not easily discern the sexual identity of their children. I know my family was surprised when I came out of the closet but it isn’t like that really matttered. I have friends who have parents who disowned them, kicked them out, beat them and many other bad things when they came out. Again, this experience is even more compounded with transexuals as they receive conflicting information about their identity even more so than gay children.

“As a taxpayer, it might trouble me that the school district had to hire a clinical psychologist to help handle this.”

I agree. In a perfect, accepting society there should have been no need. But for now, it is acceptable as too many bigots are out there who can’t see past the fact that the principal was a man, now a woman, without changing her ability to do her job.

“Also, why did the principal only inform the school board of this a couple of weeks before school started?”

There isn’t a federal law that blanket protects transgendered or homosexual people. The principal in question probably didn’t inform the school board because she had issues with her job security. Since she informed them late I would assume that she made it more difficult for them to find a replacement for her thus making her position more secure for the time being. Also, it forces the school to see that her performance as a principal is no different than it was before. A school principal for the most part is an “accountant/president” who makes sure the school receives its viable federal/state funding and enables some other resources to be funneled in while budgeting the funds to the appropriate programs. Principals rarely have interraction with students (that is what vice-principals are for). To see the school basically run in the same manner, to me, would be vastly more important than what the current gender of the school principal is.

HUGS!
Sqrl

4

I’m just curious as to how this came as a surprise to the school district. The article gives every indication that Ms. Reed has already undergone SRS, but as far as I know there is not a hospital or a psychiatrist anywhere in the United States who will approve or perform SRS without the patient having lived for a year first as the new gender.

Is it possible for Ms. Reed to have gotten approval to live as a woman prior to SRS only outside of school hours for the year prior, and if so, doesn’t that defeat the entire point of the exercise?

5

Thanks for the responses. ** pl**, I don’t know about how he passed before the surgery. Wondered about that myself.

sqrl – I’ll try to address most of your points without lengthy quoting. Let me know if you think I missed something. Again, I appreciate the ability to discuss this type of thing openly.

I guess underlying at least a portion of my feelings is that I am not entirely certain how I feel about this type of gender reassignment. I know I have similar difficulties when people refer to GLBT. I personally think of T somewhat differently than I do GLB. For one thing, there are so many different “categories” of transgenderism, with many different genetic and emotional aspects. Further, I don’t believe that everyone would agree that an individual “feeling/knowing that one is not of the sex at birth” is necessarily a sign of complete mental and emotional well being. Not that I defer in all respectts to the American Psychiatric Assn., but one could pick several diagnosable conditions from the DSM-IV apparently assignable to this individual.

I also don’t know that everyone need accept your statement that this individual “was once a man and is now a woman” (paraphrased). I agree that she should be treated as a woman. I also agree that this should be absolutely irrelevant to most situations. But what gender would blind genetic testing assign this individual?

This is not to say that someone who wishes to undergo gender reassignment should not be permitted to do so. But I am not certain that such actions should be without repercussions. Of course, I acknowledge the tremendous personal/familial/societal repercussions. But I question whether the reassignment of a principal who undergoes this extreme procedure is necessarily “punishment” or “discrimination.”

I think that a principal, and possibly teachers and other job titles, are in a relatively unique position. They have to at least create the impression that all of their students can approach them about anything. This means they are not entirely free to conduct themselves in whatever manner they wish, simply because it is not prohibited by law. Maybe I sound like an old conservative fuddy duddy for saying so. But this strikes me as somewhat similar to the posting of the 10 commandments in court, or public schools. Doesn’t this make the non-christian feel less welcome? (I know, not a perfect analogy.) Maybe the principal should not have a “Legalize marijuana” bumper sticker on her car. Maybe she should conduct herself more “conservatively” in her empoyment, than in her private life.

I don’t think people are necessarily “wrong” or “bad” for thinking there is something “odd” about gender reassignment. Again, gender reassignment is a little more extreme than simply being open with your kids concerning sex, or sexual orientation.

I think a parent should be able to decide when they broach different subjects with their kids. It is an unfortunate fact that some uptight folks will never consider their kids sufficiently mature to deal with topics such as this. So, as I said, I might consider it less of a deal if this were at high school level. But I do not think it is necessarily unreasonable for an adult to say, “My kid is 11. I resent that someone else’s personal concerns force me to bring up this topic at this time, in this context.” Do you have kids sqrl? I do, and I admit that at times I have been pissed off when other people get to determine what gets addressed in my home when. For reference, last year my oldest daughter, 13, had a class at out UU church tetles “Beyond pink and blue,” about sexual stereotyping. This fall will be “OWL” (Our Whole Lives), previously “AYS” (About Your Sexuality).

Regarding the need to hire a clinical psychologist, you state that “In a perfect, accepting society there should have been no need. But for now, it is acceptable as too many bigots are out there who can’t see past the fact that the principal was a man, now a woman, without changing her ability to do her job.”

I don’t know if it is entirely “fair” to attack folk as potential bigots. Seems like sort of shifting the blame. And I think it undervalues the legitimacy of potential concerns. This principal apparently had some pretty significant personal issues. She took steps to address them. However, these steps create some external costs, which she is imposing upon the school district and taxpayers. I am not as sure as you that the assignment of these costs is an open and shut case.

6

No more relevant than any other major surgery, which is to say, not at all.

I have no sympathy whatsoever for parents that resent having to discuss complex issues with their children. The world is full of them, and they intersect our lives at their own pace. Discussing complex things is part of the job. But when it comes to it, I doubt that they resented discussing it with their child; I suspect they resented having to think about it themselves.

7

There is nothing more obvious and definite than that, barring the child’s own death, he or she will outlive all his parents and grandparents, aunts and uncles. But how few parents equip their children to realize that their grandparents and parents will someday die? How many kids are needlessly traumatized by a death everyone but them was expecting, or one that happened suddenly?

Kids are quite flexible if they are given time and information to do so. I know a nine-year-old who at age six was quite familiar with what her parents’ infidelities with each other constituted (in general terms, not the biological specifics, which didn’t interest her) – and was upset, not with the idea that it had happened, but at the fact they were fighting with each other and she might be again uprooted from her home if they separated. (“Again” because they had recently moved twice.)

She’d handle comfortably the idea that “Mr. Jones went and the doctors helped him become Ms. Jones” without the goofy details of gender dysphoria and SRS that we would discuss at inordinate length here. The idea that “most people don’t change sexes but the occasional one does” is no more odd to her than “most people don’t have to watch eating sweets but Uncle Lee and Aunt Nini, who are diabetic, do.” And she doesn’t care about Islets of Langerhans, just about her loved ones and what they can and can’t eat. She’d have the same reaction about Mr./Ms. Jones.

8

thanks for not misinterpretting my intentions Dinsdale. I don’t mean to sound confrontational but know I do sometimes.

“I personally think of T somewhat differently than I do GLB.”

I have to agree. The transgendered part of GLBT is siginificantly different insomuch as what the transgendered folk have to go through is amplified significantly. Out of all the people here I can’t imagine that we don’t have a transgendered person who could “come out” and explain it better than I can.

“Further, I don’t believe that everyone would agree that an individual “feeling/knowing that one is not of the sex at birth” is necessarily a sign of complete mental and emotional well being.”

That is an interesting issue with tons and tons of books, websites, and clinical studies about it. I can’t really put it into an analogy without equating it to something bad but it will give the idea. (No offense in the next few sentances.) You wake up one morning and know you have cancer. You know it is treatable but the treatment will physically change you afterwards (you lose your hair, your breasts…etc). Also, you know that after having such drastic therapy that you will never be the same again. You can choose to ignore it and be in pain or you can have it fixed and be a different person. (I know it isn’t the best analogy.) Anyway, a transgendered person sees that remaining the same and in pain (mental not physical) and has the means to change it. I can’t imagine this is an easy thing to deal with. Just as assuredly you know that you are male/female a transgendered person knows that he/she is the opposite gender.

“But what gender would blind genetic testing assign this individual?”

Genetically the person in question would be male but this is besides the point. The issue with transgenderism is that the person believes wholeheartedly that they are the opposite sex. If said person was to go into a prison; however, that person would be put into a prison of the apparent gender that he/she currently is. I remember reading a few things about that a while ago.

"But I question whether the reassignment of a principal who undergoes this extreme procedure is necessarily “punishment” or “discrimination.” "

I don’t understand why it isn’t a punishment or discrimination. The person had a legitimate medical procedure done and is capable of performing his/her duties at the given school. Moving her would be like you having getting married job and then being told you have to change your job because married people aren’t allowed in your division/department.

“They have to at least create the impression that all of their students can approach them about anything. This means they are not entirely free to conduct themselves in whatever manner they wish, simply because it is not prohibited by law.”

I agree. I wish I had known some gay school administrators/teachers growing up. It feels very isolated when everyone in “power” seems to be straight and anti-gay for the most part. A nice, well-adjusted gay person would have worked wonders on my adolescent self-esteem. With someone so drastically different as this principal in particular I am sure that they at least are a beacon to some of the transgendered and possibly gay students out there even if they aren’t actually accessible for the student. Reassignment of this person would basically equate to the following: transgendered people are bad and we best put them somewhere else because they are bad. bad bad bad bad bad. :slight_smile:

“Maybe the principal should not have a “Legalize marijuana” bumper sticker on her car. Maybe she should conduct herself more “conservatively” in her empoyment, than in her private life.”

Actually as a non-christian I feel uncomfortable in public places where the ten commandments are posted. But I see your point. There are certain things that a public servant such as a principal or teacher should adhere to. Basically it amounts to not advocating illegal activities. There are some moral issues too but that is a tight line to walk. Conservatism is not necessarily the appropriate thing to do nor is it the wrong thing. It is just a different end of this particular spectrum.

“I don’t think people are necessarily “wrong” or “bad” for thinking there is something “odd” about gender reassignment. Again, gender reassignment is a little more extreme than simply being open with your kids concerning sex, or sexual orientation.”

Extreme makes it sound harsh. It is just an additional spectrum of human sexuality that we now have the technology to fix.

“I think a parent should be able to decide when they broach different subjects with their kids.”

That is true. They should decide and they should do it early and often. Most don’t unless an issue is forced. Such is life. :slight_smile: However, there is the world out there and everything constantly evolves and changes. I am sure many parents still won’t talk to their kids at that particular school about transgenderism even if the kids ask. I know I was never told about gay people at home except that gay = bad. And the only bit of transgenderism talk that I ever had was after I came out, I was asked by my mother and my sister later when I would have a sex change. Not too enlightened really. If a kid brings up this subject and the parent doesn’t know how to talk about it or what to talk about they should both go out and learn about it together. I know that sounds like work. But again, it is part of life.

“So, as I said, I might consider it less of a deal if this were at high school level. But I do not think it is necessarily unreasonable for an adult to say, “My kid is 11. I resent that someone else’s personal concerns force me to bring up this topic at this time, in this context.””

What if your kid just asked you things out of the blue? Kids do that and usually at the most inappropriate time. Have you been asked where babies come from by a 3 year old? Or why mommy has gotten so fat? Yeah, not nice or easy questions to answer for a kid but oh well. Just because it is a more complex social issue doesn’t mean it is wrong. If a kid asks a question it just means that he/she is interested in a subject. Sometimes a short succinct answer will do like “babies come from mommies” for a three year old and sometimes not “well, babies are the biproduct of me fucking your mom… see we do it like this” /em inserts porn tape and makes the kid take notes. (You get the picture.) You can answer questions appropriately based on the age of a child. If you are not sure, you should tell your kid about it but tell him/her that you will find out and help them understand it better too.

" Do you have kids sqrl?"

Nope, I am effectively sterile. I also know it isn’t any of my business how other people raise their kids unless I am asked specifically for advice. Sometimes a third party can give an altering un-biased view.

Regarding the need to hire a clinical psychologist, you state that “In a perfect, accepting society there should have been no need. But for now, it is acceptable as too many bigots are out there who can’t see past the fact that the principal was a man, now a woman, without changing her ability to do her job.”

“I don’t know if it is entirely “fair” to attack folk as potential bigots.”

I didn’t mean it quite like that. I was simply trying to state that uninformed and/or hateful people will spread disinformation about people that they see as different. Not a very nice thing at all, IMHO.

“This principal apparently had some pretty significant personal issues. She took steps to address them. However, these steps create some external costs, which she is imposing upon the school district and taxpayers.”

Well, the principal still is qualified to do her job. The schoold didn’t have to do anything. They could have ignored the constituents and continued on their merry own way. Personally I would think it would be the parents responsibility to educate themselves on transgenderism but that would be significantly more expensive than one central place hiring a speaker. I don’t know about the affluency of that given schools area nor do I really care. I think it was appropriate for the school district to hire a psychologist/speaker to explain these things on a neutral ground mostly for cost reasons. Assuming there are about 1000 parents at a given school (I know it is most likely higher) and a speaker doesn’t cost that much relatively speaking compared to 1000 parents going out and getting that type of information on their own (buying books, going to lectures, spending the time to find out, etc).

Going back to the issue PLD raised, “Is it possible for Ms. Reed to have gotten approval to live as a woman prior to SRS only outside of school hours for the year prior, and if so, doesn’t that defeat the entire point of the exercise?”

I would have to agree with that statement but I don’t know what her doctor said or had agreed to. It may have been foolish and impulsive but it still doesn’t change the arguments above for a transgendered person. For the most part they know who they are. It is just “us” who need the convincing.

HUGS!
Sqrl

9

Just briefly:
sqrl asks: “What if your kid just asked you things out of the blue?”

Ms D and I have always made concerted efforts to fully and openly answer any question our kids asked since they were able to talk. Instead of sex, we usually had more trouble getting stumped by quantum mechanics. In fact, it is sort of a joke at times, when our kids will say, “Sheesh! It was just a simple question. I didn’t need a lecture.” This attitude has had the delightful result that, at ages 10-13, my kids are able to converse intelligently, and hold well reasoned views, on an incredibly wide range of topics. (Of course, they are equally able to be totally silly kids at other times.)

And my question of whether you had kids was not to suggest that your views related to child-rearing were unwelcome or uninformed. Just suggesting that an individual’s personal situation may influence his views, or his ability to fully understand all aspects of a situation. Same way your sexual orientation may give you some insights on some issues I have not personally experienced. Thanks.

Finally, it surprises me that none of our more “conservative” friends have shown up to present their views. Personally, I find this type of discussion interesting and valuable because it allows me to re-examine my views. Put simply, in most areas of my life I am viewed as outrageously liberal. In fact, I regularly find myself keeping quiet to prevent judgmental folk from forming unfavorable generalizations about me and my family, with undesirable implications in my community and its organizations. It is somewhat surprising, and refreshing, to find myself in a situation where I am the most “conservative” of the bunch, such as occasionally happens here or at my UU church. Or perhaps it is issues such as this that permit me to realize that, tho I enerally consider myself as rather fairminded, I still harbor some prejudices.

10

I wonder why the district had to hire a psychologist especially for this. At least in CA, most (if not all) districts have psychologists either on staff or on call.

I am the mother of one, and soon to be mother of two. I have no problem with this at all. I am not afraid to discuss the real world with my son. I can’t imagine that this would be the most shocking thing he sees or hears about, even in junior high!

I am also a consultant who works with school districts, and that was a ballsy (so to speak) move by a school board. Most school boards would have been unable to see past parent prejudice and headlines. Hell, most school boards can’t agree on whether or not Harry Potter will warp kid’s minds, let alone issues like GLBT authority figures!

More power to her!

PS- I tend to be fairly conservative.

11

OTOH Illinois does not have ERA laws protecting homosexuals and transsexuals from job discrimination. We’ll see how this goes.

12

It is an admirable thing to re-evaluate your views periodically. I don’t really see why transgenderism is any different than quantum mechanics to talk to kids with. It is just more controversial. Kids could ask about transgenderism out of the blue too. Also, there is nothing to say that the kids in question aren’t asking from outer stimuli necessarily (the principal had a sex change) but from inner stimuli (I feel like I am a woman, mommy). In this specific case it is most likely outer stimuli but again that is really irrelevant. With kids you have to be prepared to talk about anything, as you already know.

HUGS!
Sqrl

13

I think that Principal was unbelievable brave. More power to her. I hope things go well.

It’s amazing how many schools give lip service to dealing with GLBT issues, but don’t even do anything when kids call each other Faggot or Queer.

Even here in the Bay Area, it isn’t easy to be an openly Gay teacher… I can’t imagine how tough it would be being Transgendered.
SFCanadian

14

Seems to me(and I could be wrong) that most 11 yr olds would understand neither. Maybe I’m getting more conservative as I grow older, but I think I would be just a bit uneasy having to broach that topic with a child so young, as some of those parents felt.

15

“Seems to me(and I could be wrong) that most 11 yr olds would understand neither. Maybe I’m getting more conservative as I grow older, but I think I would be just a bit uneasy having to broach that topic with a child so young, as some of those parents felt.”

Interesting Spooje. What would constitute an accurate and complete sex talk with a youngster then? I know that well before I was 11 (actually well before I was 3) that I was gay. I didn’t learn the words for it until I turned 5 and then it was in a reference to me being a bad person (ie, don’t say that guys are cute…that is what fags say…thank you sister). I think Polycarp had put it best (love y’ Poly :)). Perhaps it should be added that kids are resilient and <b>accepting</b> (hope the vb code works) until they learn different.

HUGS!
Sqrl

16

I think saying “Previously having the body of a man, returned in the body of a woman.” I am not trying to nitpick or start a fight over semantics. Your phrasing implies that the the principal WAS a man. I hold the position that the principal was a woman with the body of a man. For the same reason the transgendered community frowns on the term “sex change”. There is evidence that a human can have a brain that is not the same gender as their chromosomes or morphology.

   I see no problem in explaining this to most children. Telling them about SRS will not make them rush  to the nearest surgeon. If you can have the sex talk and the death talk with your kids, you can talk to them about their principal. I see a problem only for those parents who have decided that even though their kids are in puberty and may already be sexually active, they are too young for the sex talk. This is middle school! These kids are at the spin the bottle and truth or dare age. If the parents haven't given their kids information, they'll soon be believing all kinds of misinformation from their peers (can't get pregnant the first time, or standing up, etc).

   The only problem I can see has already passed. When starting hormones, patients may experience mood swings, depression and other problems. That would be the only period when the treatment might interfere with the duties of a principal.

   The school hired a psychiatrist to protect itself as much as to explain the situation. By  having a credible source explain that the principal is still fit for the job, the school board prevents lawsuits and explains that it has no legal liability. As other posters have said, it also assures that those parents seeking information can get the correct information quickly and easily.
17

That should read
I think saying “previously having the body of a man and returning in the body of a woman.” would describe the situation more accurately.

18

cite please.

19

Or, “previously having the body of a man and returning in the body of a man surgically and hormonally altered to resemble the body of a woman.”

20

I have to disagree with the contention that a sex change operation has no effect on a principal’s ability to do his or her job. It is true that in an ideal world, it wouldn’t. But we do not, as I’m sure you all know, live in such a world.

I mean, the average middle school student is - and I say this with the utmost respect and affection - as close to demonspawn as you can get without growing a tail. Part of the principal’s job - a substantial part of the job - is to maintain a sense of authority, to engender respect in his or her charges and thereby keep them in line and keep them learning.

Now, again, in a perfect world all parents would be open and tolerant and encourage their children to be open and tolerant, as well. This does not happen, at least not in the middle school I attended. Children look for weakness in their teachers, parents, and administrators, and if they see one, they will pounce on it ruthlessly.

In the real world, a principal (or teacher, or other authority figure) who gets a sex change operation will be sniggered at and held up for ridicule by 85-90% of his or her students. Whether it’s fair or not, that principal will lose respect as a result of that ridicule, and consequently his or her ability to meaningfully affect his or her students will be severely compromised, if not destroyed altogether. I expect that it is for this same reason that most schools have rules against faculty members having sexual or romantic relationships; because such relationships would inevitably lead to an erosion of respect.

Not fair? Of course it isn’t. It stinks. But that’s kids. The principal in question should simply move to another school, where her previous gender is not known, just as a teacher at my high school once had to switch schools because she began a relationship with another teacher.