I am trying to come up with a screen play for an episode of Boston Public whereby the principal suddenly appears as a woman on the podium in the gym in front of the entire student body on the first day of school. Can you picture it?
Still thinking about this.
I guess what I am ending up with is simply that I do not have a lot of sympathy/empathy for transgendered people. I’ll try to put a little down here, but find I am having a hard time putting it into words. Perhaps that is because accurately representing my thoughts on this does not make me look like “a nice person.”
Individuals, as well as society, make judgments as to the boundaries of what is acceptable behavior - what is the acceptable range of normal. And it is hard to come up with bright lines or specific definitions. Like the S.Ct. justice who said he cannot define obscenity, but he knows it when he sees it. Couldn’t we come up with some actions that we would all agree are “wrong?” Beastiality? Pedophilia? Are they wrong simply because they involve a second party incapable of consent?
As I said above, I generally consider myself rather liberal. But while I support an individuals freedom to do just about whatever he/she wants with his own body/life/assets, such freedom is not withhout repercussions. I can get a tatoo across my face tomorrow, but I can’t necessarily force a prospective employer to hire me.
I guess I consider transgenderism to be across the line from what needs to be protected. Especially when it comes to the point of surgicaly altering your body. Something of that strikes me as self mutilation. Heck, I support euthanasia and believe individuals should have near total control over what they do to their own body, including suicide. But that doesn’t mean such actions should be accepted as within the range of normal, desireable, or praiseworthy behavior.
Again, I am spending quite a bit of time with this, and this post certainly falls short of a cogent representation of my final conclusions. Feel free to flame, question, or assist me while I do so.
Dinsdale
You see no difference between a tattoo and sex reassignment surgery?
So if you were born with an extra withered arm or leg and it could be safely surgically removed,you don’t think anyone should feel sympathy or empathy for you or encourage you to take this radical step to bring your body into line with your self-image? What if you had a benign tumor the size of a lemon on your face? Or, not to be so extreme, what about a cleft palette or a club foot? These are things you were born with and you would be “mutilating” your natural body through surgery to correct these defects. That’s how I understand transgenered people view their bodies, as defective and in need of surgical correction.
But what if you desired surgical removal of a normal functional limb? Or surgical clefting of a normal palette?
If an individual’s mental-body-image differs from his/her physical-body-reality, why must we assume the body should be altered, just because today’s medical technology is more able to? Isn’t it possible that the individual’s body image is wrong? I may think I am the King of Prussia, but that don’t make it so.
Is it sufficient justification for the surgery that it makes the greatest number of affected people “happier”? And that today’s mental health care is not able to address the problem?
I also am confused by what I recall (sorry, no cite) as a large percentage of individuals undergoing SRS who subsequently live homosexual lifestyles with respect to their new gender. Underpinning issues such as a fear/revulsion for penetrating/being penetrated do not strike my (apparently) straitlaced mind as terribly well-balanced.
Another facet is whether SRS should be funded by insurance or government assistance.
But, I don’t wish to go on at great lengths as the standardbearer for those opposed to SRS (which I don’t think I am.) So, I’m sorry if I offended anyone. I’m sure I will continue to think about this, but I am not sure that I will continue to post much in this thread.
Again, I am sorry if I am a weenie for stepping out of this after initiating the thread, and if I am overly inflexible for not completely changing my position in response to your intelligent and moving posts.
Usually if someone does something then they don’t consider it wrong. Therefore we don’t all agree, unless something never happens. The judge said that he can tell porno when he sees it because he wants to restrict individuals from doing things he doesen’t like.
Its possible, but its also possible that I am the King of Prussia. Eventually we must acknowledge reality.
The problem is there is no justification for not having the surgery. The problem is that being transgendered is not a medical problem, rather a social one. The best way to deal with it is not by moving the principle to a new school and pretending that nothing happened. It wasn’t the best way to deal with women getting pregnant back in the 50’s either.
Some do some don’t. One could argue that a large number are homosexual simply because thats the way they were born. From what I have seen most are even more straightlaced than you and would not even think about homosexuality for themselves. Probably in part because any homosexuals who are transgendered are more likely to be turned down for SRS because of the psychologist’s hangups. I would suggest not relying on internet statistics for anything transgendered. For every statistic there are two others that say the exact opposite thing. Not to mention reacting to a non issue like a principle changing sex as a huge deal doesen’t strike me as terribly well-balanced.
Is a transexual lesbian. Fortunatley for us, she’s also
a writer. I’ve got to do a little searching, but I have
seen a piece she wrote on MTF’s who are attracted to women.
I also reccomend her work on various projects from Vertigo.
Dinsdale, you hold that a transexual’s boy image is wrong. Why is is you feel this way? While the above link is not the show stopper I was hoping for, it does suggest that a male brain in a female body (and vice versa) IS possible. In which case it is not the body image, but the body itself that needs fixing.
Sigh. I wish I had more time just now to reply to all the, ahem, interesting comments in this thread. I suppose I am not upholding my duties as the board’s resident transgendered lesbian. Anyway, I promise I’ll try to set clear some of the nonsense being spouted in this thread when I get home this evening.
Thanks for the link DocCathode. Interesting stuff. I know how much work you had to do to find it since I tried to research some of this a while back and got sick of searching through the porn.
HUGS!
Sqrl
I intended no insult in reffering to Pollack as a
transexual lesbian. She has used those two words to
describe herself quite often.
KellyM, I’m so glad you’re here. I thought there was
a doper who had undergone SRS, but could not remember
your name.If I have said anything to offend you or
misrepresented the transgendered community, I would appreciate your giving me the straight dope.
Dinsdale
Personally I have no problem with the concept radical body modification. I doubt that there are very many surgeons who would perform either of the above operations, but if it were performed, as long as there is no effect on me after the surgery (e.g. having a limb amputated then asking for SSD benefits) it really doesn’t matter to me. But the case in point isn’t analogous to the above examples so I don’t believe they relate.
Dinsdale
Yes, which is why it is required prior to SRS that the candidate live full-time as a member of the other sex for at least a year.
I’m going to reply to things more or less in the order in which they appeared in the thread.
Dinsdale:
According to my psychiatrist (who is also the director of a world-renowned institute for the scientific study of sex and gender), the only age range that is not-well prepared to deal with the transition of someone near to them (such as a family member) is roughly ages 3 to 8. Middle-school children are not in this age range generally. Furthermore, the relationship between principal and student is nowhere near as close or as critical as the relationship between close family members. There is no reason, given our current understanding of the development of gender in children, to believe that casual exposure of a child 11 to 14 years to a transgendered individual will cause any harm whatsoever.
SqrlCub:
I feel the need to point out that being transsexual has nothing to do with sexuality, but about gender identification. It is perfectly possible to discuss sexual reassignment without discussing sex. “Transgender” is not a “fourth sexual orientation” (as the GLBT acronym misleadingly suggests).
The Supreme Court has specifically held that the Civil Rights Act does not apply to transsexuals; I can find the case if required. The ADA also does not apply to transsexuals, due to explicit language in the statute. As to whether she should have told them: employees generally have no obligation to inform their employer of medical conditions which do not affect their job performance. Do you need to tell your employer that you plan to get your teeth straightened? What about a breast reduction?
pldennison:
The Standards of Care are somewhat flexible. The “one year full time” requirement may be waived by the concurrence of two psychiatrists (and the surgeon). Ultimately, it’s up to the medical professionals to decide whether the individual has demonstrated the ability to live as a member of the desired gender adequately and otherwise indicated a full awareness of the consequences of reassignment before granting approval. The Standards of Care set forth guidelines, not hard, fast rules, for making this determination.
Dinsdale:
The T is GLBT is really not a very happy marriage. (Of course, neither is the B or the L, but for different reasons.) There are lots of different types of transgenders, including the straight guy with fetishistc transvesticism who once in a while wears panties and a bra to masturbate, drag queens/drag kings, genderbenders (who often deliberately try to confuse people as to their apparent gender), and transsexuals (who try to appear as the gender opposite that to which their birth sex would normally assign them). There is virtually no commonality of issues amongst these various flavors. As I previously stated, transgender is not a fourth sexual orientation; the issue is completely independent of orientation.
I am a woman. I challenge you to call me otherwise to my face.
Genetic testing cannot assign a gender to an individual. At best, genetic testing will identify chromosomal sex. It doesn’t even identify birth sex reliably because of some of the intersexual anomalies that result in variance between chromosomal sex and phenotypic expression of sex at birth.
What “repercussions” do you think are appropriate for one who elects to undergo reassignment?
SqrlCub:
There are quite a few transgenders on the boards. Some out, others not. There’s even an “Ask the Transgendered Person” thread.
Daowajan:
Cook County, however, does have protection against discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. As far as I know, this ordinance has never been tested as to whether it applies to transsexuals.
DocCathode:
Yes, the term generally used is “sexual reassignment surgery”, although the terms “genital reconstruction surgery” and “gender confirmation surgery” are also used. (The last is rather corny, in my opinion.) Importantly, avoiding the term “sex change” is a major factor in getting insurance to pay for surgery. “Genital reconstruction surgery” is far more likely to be reimbursed.
Generally, too, that is a transient problem. A doctor following the Standards of Care will not prescribe hormones until s/he is satisfied that that patient’s mental state is reasonably sound. (Some depression is to be expected, but serious mental illness is a contradindication for hormone therapy.) I experienced about two weeks of wildly variable emotions when I started Premarin, but after that initial period my mood has been generally more stable and generally better than before I started hormone therapy.
Dinsdale:
It is currently suspected (although not proven) that male-to-female transsexualism is caused by fetal exposure during a certain critical phase of brain development to estrogenizing chemicals. Many pesticides, notably DDT, have estrogenizing effects.
storyteller0910:
How would moving her to a new school help? It would be a matter of days, perhaps even hours, before students at that school would find out about their new principal’s history.
Furthermore, any involuntary transfer is generally construed as a penalty. Why should she be penalized for taking reasonable medical steps to deal with her medical condition? Would you suggest that a teacher who has to have a limb amputated due to cancer be transferred to another school to spare the children the agony of seeing their teacher as a pale shadow of her formerly healthy self?
Dinsdale:
“Gender” and “sex” are not used synonymously by sex & gender researchers. Unfortunately, the terms are not used consistently even within that field. One of the reasons why being transgendered is so socially challenging is that it challenges the generally-accepted (but wrong) assumption that gender and sex are irretreivably linked.
There is anatomical evidence that transsexuals have variation in brain structure from nontranssexuals, although I have no idea where to find the studies. This is what is meant by having a “brain” of a different “gender” than one’s “body”: the brain, for whatever reason (see above) developed with the morphology corresponding to the “wrong” sex.
A large proportion of intersexuals have their genitals mutilated at birth. Those that do not may or may not undergo reassignment later in life. While broadly speaking intersexuals outnumber transsexuals, I suspect that the majority of individuals seeking reassignment are transsexual, not intersexual. (I believe the ratio in Finland is about 4 transsexuals per 1 intersexual, per personal correspondence.)
SqrlCub:
The term “transgender” sometimes works better. It also helps to use “transexual” instead of “transsexual”; for some reason the single-s variant is more common in scholarly works. You might also consider including terms like “journal” or “study” that are not likely to have anything to do with porn.
Dinsdale:
I am a lesbian. I have no problem with being penetrated, but I have a real dislike with the idea of someone squirting in (or at) me. (My girlfriend, who is bi, makes fun of me sometimes for this.) I simply do not find men sexually attractive, probably for reasons parallel to those that SqrlCub apparently does not find women sexually attractive.
Transsexuals almost never seek reassignment in order to become straight. Almost every studied instance where a gay man has sought reassignment in order to become “straight” has shown negative results (including a well-known case where two gay men drew straws for which one would go under the knife, ending in both committing suicide within six months).
My recollection is that the post-surgical preference ratios are about even: 1/3 straight, 1/3 gay, and 1/3 bi. I don’t find these numbers “alarming” or even unexpected.
It depends on whether you believe that it’s better for people to have happy, enjoyable lives or to die miserably.
DocCathode:
I have not had SRS. I started hormones last October and have been a full-time female since January 1, 2001. (I thought that a good way to start the new millenium.) Assuming nothing unusual happens, I will be eligible for SRS under the SOC in 2002. However, I will not be able to afford SRS (barring a substantial raise or an unexpected windfall) until sometime around 2010, unless I can convince my medical insurer to pay for the procedure.
There is no such thing as a “transgender community”.
First of all, many transgendered individuals are assiduous about not letting the fact that they are transgendered be known. People in the closet cannot form a community on the basis of their shared characteristic; not only is there not enough room in the closet, but it’s too dark to see each other so you can’t tell who’s there. A substantial portion of transsexuals believe that “deep stealth” is the best means of transition. “Deep stealth” means that absolutely as few people as possible, preferably only your doctor, knows that you weren’t always the same physical sex. It’s hard to form a community of people who don’t want anyone else to know that they might qualify as a member.
Second, there are too many disparate flavors of transgendered individual with too many diverse issues. The lives of most transgendered individuals do not revolve around being transgendered, any more than the lives of most gay men do not revolve around being gay. I’m more concerned about Microsoft’s anticompetitive business practices and their influence on the progress of the art of computing than I am in “transsexual issues”, whatever those are. I personally have no real interest in congregating with other transsexuals. I know a few other transsexuals; some are friends, others are not. Many transsexuals, as mentioned above, actually try to avoid being around other transsexuals. On the other hand, drag queens do seem to congregate, which means that an arbitrary collection of “transgenders” is likely to be dominated by drag queens. Think about how this affects the public perception of transgenders, and especially how it has reinforced the inaccurate stereotype that “transgendered” is just a flavor of “gay”.
This is probably the longest post I’ve ever made to the boards. Enjoy.
In other places with similar circumstances it has always not applied to transexuals. Even being fired for “acting gay” is not protected under such laws usually.
Thanks for the info, KellyM.
Thanks KellyM. I knew someone would come over here who would be able to answer the questions better than I ever could.
HUGS!
Sqrl
Your post was informative and honest. I wonder if we could organise a Doper fund raiser? I mean this seriously. Just $10 from 2000 Dopers should do it. Yom Kippur is coming soon, and I’m sure I’m not the only Jewish poster trying to get good deeds in before the books close.
WITNESS WARNING-
One of the most meaningful Talmudic discussions of my life was with an MTF cantor(A position roughly equivalent to choir master). Eventually, it became clear that part of God’s plann for me was to spread his true message to BGLT’s (Line up the letter’s this way and you get Bagel. I’ve gotta finda some Jewish food for the T though.). The cantor knew it and when she told me, she spoke with a voice greater than her own. The message is-God does NOT even care if you’re gay, bisexual, lesbian, or transgendered. We are all God’s children and he loves us. Rather than a “sickness” or “the Devil’s work”, these people are the way God made them. Why God would put a female soul in a male nody, or vice versa, I don’t know. If I had those kind of answers on be sitting on a pile of money and typing on a Cray.
This is the extent of the divine revelations I’ve had. Most of the time I’m just your average neurotic, Jewish guy. But if God can speak through a jackass, it’s not really a stretch to speak through me.
I have no interest in pulling a Craig Shergold in order to fund my medical care. If people truly want to give me money (or in fact any useful item), I would not refuse, but I am not going to organize a fundraising campaign or actively solicit donations.
Apparently there are enough anal-retentive parents in this school district to get up a petition demanding the termination of Dr. Reed.
“Our children are afraid,” said Ellen Greenwald. “They’re told if they laugh or make any comments, they will be disciplined. I said [to administrators] that if my child is disciplined, I will sue the school district.”
Gee, I didn't think of that before. Hmm, she's right. No school should have the power to punish students for mocking those who are different. While Greenwald is at it she should lobby for students right to mock gays and lesbians-but why stop there? Students should not be disciplined for mocking Jews, or blacks.
On a serious note, I'm frightened that this woman has reproduced. The shrink quoted in the article is worth whatever they pay her. Bigotted, tiny minds like Greenwald's are the real danger to these children.