It’s been 20+ years since my Naval Service but I suspect Smitty would have been charged with Article 87 Missing Movement: Any person subject to this chapter who through neglect or design misses the movement of a ship, aircraft, or unit with which he is required in the course of duty to move shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
And Smitty was likely awarded an Other Than Honorable administrative discharge, rather than going through a more formal Special or General Courts Martial (à la A Few Good Men).
As to “lifelong consequences”, depending on length of enlistment, an OTH discharge can affect eligibility for VA healthcare, VA educational benefits, federal and state employment as well as jobs requiring a security clearance. “Quitting” the military is more serious than quitting at WalMart.
First: there is an administrative procedure required to be followed when a service member applies for CO status.
Second: missing movement is an intentional act; if the commanding officer designates the service member to remain behind, that is not “missing movement”. The applicant could still deploy while assigned to non-combatant duties while the application is processed. Once a decision is made (1-denied, applicant returns to regularly-assigned duties; 2-approved, applicant is discharged if that’s the type of conscientious objection sought; 3-approved, applicant is reassigned to duties which do not involve use of weapons if that is the type of conscientious objection sought), then the prescribed outcome will follow.
Third: OTH is a characterization of service, which is determined using the prescribed matrix in the DOD instruction governing separation from the military. Being separated administratively for conscientious objection does not generate an Other Than Honorable characterization of service unless there were disciplinary actions in the member’s record. Note that it’s the disciplinary actions that generate such categorization, not the conscientious objection.
Fourth: Since his purported court-martial happened “years later” (as it is, Bullitt’s story really doesn’t pass the “smell test” anyway), it’s unlikely that said court-martial had a blame thing to do with the incident in Bullitt’s story.
Fifth: Let me say again this again. Conscientious Objectors are not “bad guys” as Bullitt so generously implied in his story.
Re:** Bullitt**'s story about “Smitty”. There’s one thing to keep in mind. Operation Desert Shield was the first time since Korea that the National Guard was called up to serve in combat overseas. People joined up for the benefits and monthly weekend drills and 2 weeks summer duty. Sure, maybe if there was a flood or an anti-war demonstration they’d get called up for LOCAL duty, but Overseas Hazardous Duty? Forget it, never gonna happen. Hell, even Dan Quayle and George W Bush signed up to avoid Hazardous Duty. So, getting called up for Desert Shield took most of the National Guard by surprise. Sure, they drilled at combat stuff, but never expected to be called on to use it. So, I’m thinking Smitty just signed up for the tuition assistance and NEVER expected to be called up.
I don’t think the USMC has Hospital Corpsmen, they get USN HC’s assigned to them. If the USMC HAD HC’s, I don’t think it would have been much of an issue getting a reservist like Smitty, who is a medical student, assigned to some sort of medical/hospital type assignment. That’s about as non-combatant as one can get in-theater. But if Smitty just flat out said “I’m a CO and I’m not going”, well, that’s a world of shit he brought upon himself.
Based the above, Smitty did not advise the recruiter of his conscious objector beliefs prior to enlisting nor during any period of active duty or reserve status did he apply for CO status, he didn’t bring it up until his upcoming mobilization nor begin the administrative procedure.
Since it isn’t stated in the thread, neither you nor I know if Smitty’s commanding officer designated Smitty to remain behind or it was Smitty’s decision not to deploy. We don’t know if Smitty was submitting a CO application and if so, what the final determination was.
Going with Bullitt’s post #65 about the possibility of testifying at Smitty’s court-martial, I picked Missing Movement as an appropriate UCMJ Article that Smitty could be charged under, I’ve seen it used before when the infraction is more serious than going AWOL but not as serious as Desertion, it’s a command decision. I don’t know for certain if that was the case but there does have to be a Charging Article(s).
Yup, Other Than Honorable is a characterization of service on separation/discharge papers, as my link from post #81 shows. And while others without military service might somehow conclude a person could be discharged/court-martialed for being a conscious objector, I didn’t see anything in this thread stating or implying that, I certainly didn’t.
My guess that Smitty was awarded an Other Than Honorable administrative discharge followed the path:
Smitty’s unit is mobilized. Smitty doesn’t deploy. something something. There’s going to be a court-martial (what’s the charge? I guessed Missing Movement). What’s the outcome of the court-martial - I guessed Smitty would be awarded an OTH admin discharge.
I can believe Smitty’s court-martial didn’t wouldn’t happen until years later. At the time Smitty’s unit was busy mobilizing, then deployed, then demobilizing. Smitty’s Conscientious Objector application has to be processed and it’s difficult to gather testimony while his unit is deployed. Then if he’s charged, he has to be assigned a military lawyer, and maybe he wants a civilian lawyer (at his expense) too. Then evidence has to be gathered/testimony taken. The lawyers negotiate.
And Smitty isn’t the only member who didn’t deploy, I’m thinking/guessing dealing with the more senior personnel who didn’t deploy (like pilots on whom hundreds of thousands of dollars were spent training) took precedence. There was no rush as long as Smitty was still subject to the UCMJ.
Not all Conscious Objectors are “bad guys” and not all Conscious Objectors are “good guys.”
About Smitty specifically: If he was a Conscious Objector prior to enlisting, why did he enlist in any service at all? If Smitty changed his beliefs after enlisting, why didn’t he apply for Conscious Objector status earlier? Transfer to the Navy to be a Corpsman or Religious Programs Specialist? It’s the revealing he is a Conscious Objector after he is notified of the mobilization that is raising the issue of his sincerity of belief.
You just posted a lot of blather, Fred. “Smitty” obviously wasn’t in the same situation Bergdahl was, so the court-martial would not be held “years later”.
So I don’t blather on, would you enlighten us (or at least me) on this administrative process to apply for CO status? What are the steps? Who reviews the application? Who makes the final determination? How long does the application typically take to process?
With regards to “all Marines are riflemen”, this appears to be an argument over definitions. Use different definitions, of course you get different answers.
Yes. Monty was conflating rifleman, lower case r, as the same thing as Rifleman 0311 MOS. Which of course it is not. I agree with him to the extent that I am not an 0311 Rifleman.
That one could be true, if hypothetically those two (private?) organisations did not accept muslims, they could not be compelled to?
(I have no idea if they actually do).
FWIW, that AFI came out in 2012 and pretty much made the myth a reality, for the Air Force at least. Check out previous publications of that same AFI, and you will not see that in there. The Medal of Honor has been around for over 150 years. Over about the last 5 decades, this myth has persisted long enough for at least the Air Force to bite and add it to their regulation. My guess is that whoever wrote that update didn’t actually intend to change anything. Thinking this was already a rule, they simply added it to the AFI.
But you’re right. As of 2012, less than three years ago, it is no longer a myth for the Air Force. I would have to research it again, or you can search for previous threads on the subject, but there an Air Force manual that was published AFTER 2012 which actually states the opposite of that one. Like I said, the writers probably didn’t intend to change anything, they just assumed this was the rule and put it in there. That explains why subsequent publications of other Air Force documents contradict it, and why all previous versions of that manual do not include the MoH on the list.
Well, I think it was in “12 O’clock High”, where Gregory Peck played a USAAC Colonel who was sent to straighten out a B-17 wing, his character saluted the sergeant who had been awarded the MoH and said something like “Well, now I have to salute you.”
If you can’t trust something a movie character played by an actor who later portrayed Douglas MacArthur said about military customs and courtesies, well, I don’t know what this country is coming to. As for me, I just remember that when the office I shared with my fellow instructors and the coffee mess was cluttered with student Commissioned Officers, CPO’s and Warrant Officers who were in my way, I found that if I could manage to declare “I’m just a simple Petty Officer trying to do my Duty as God has shown me the light to see that Duty” in the proper, self-righteous tone of voice, I’d have them out of office in less than 15 seconds.
Lots of Marines join the National Guard when they leave active duty. Marine Reserve units are spread out and it’s hard to find their MOS close by sometimes, especially for combat arms. And quite frankly our benefits are better. If you think it’s annoying you should talk to some 0311s.