Oh, this is funny.
I caight this guy James Kennedy, a minister from Florida on cable the other morning.
www.reclaimingamerica.org/
He wants people to send in money (he’s trying to raise over a million dollars!) to make a video about how bad the ACLU is!
Ya know, it does not cost that much to get a simple book contract and print it there.
People are this stupid not to realize "Hey, maybe a “ministry” should use donations for say, helping the poor or something?
This just is stupid.
I agree with the majority of your post. (I’m sick of Christians thinking that the ACLU per se is the devil’s tool.) I do want to nitpick this:
I’m sure it’s been said before, but the center of a “ministry” is evangelizing God/Christ/the Church/etc. A particular service (i.e., helping the poor) is meant to be an avenue through which that’s achieved, but it doesn’t necessitate helping the poor.
God agrees with the OP: The Reclaiming America website gives me a “Cannot Find Server”.
Heh. 
I’m sure i typed it in correctly.
hmmmm…
Google will get it for you.
But my point was What Would Jesus Do?
I think Jesus would say that feeding the poor was more important than proselytizing them.
vanilla, your link doesn’t seem to work, but I assume the good reverend managed to fit the ACLU into the book of Revelation? 
Cite?
I will agree with you that feeding the poor is important (“I was hungry and you fed me,” yadda yadda), but I’ve never seen anything in scripture or tradition saying that feeding is more important that proselytizing. Rather, feeding (clothing, etc.) is meant to be proselytizing itself: by imitating Christ, we show Him to others.
Again, however: Christianity is ultimately (but not, I repeat, not exclusively) concerned with the state of souls and their relation to God. To feed the poor or minister in whatever form without working towards God’s glory is problematic. (But kudos to all you non-Christians or athiests who still feed the poor: it helps me believe in the power of people.)
I actually thought this thread was about the financial dealings of Andrew Eldritch…never mind
:smack: Of course, I meant **Alan Jorgenson **…either way it doesn’t matter…just ignore me, I’m going have a drink.
Certainly true, but where does badmouthing the ACLU fit in? My personal feeling is that it’s far less important than either. But I don’t claim to be a theologian …
lost4life, I thought the same thing. Upon viewing the thread title I instantly thought of Ministry the band, then a split second later I thought of the Ministry of Silly Walks. Both made me smile.
I said “I think…” Since when does an opinion require a cite?
And I also think that any God who would put his own self-aggrandizment ahead of the physical needs of others is a jackass, unworthy of devotion or even attention.
Well, I apologize. But may I ask how you came to this conclusion? It’s a controverted point in Christianity, and I was hoping you might elaborate.
And again: I didn’t say that evangelization comes ahead of physical needs. I have never, never, ever seen Christian teaching tell me to withhold food from someone until they bow down to my God. My understanding has always been to imitate God, set the best example I can, and hope that’s enough.
Ok, I don’t have time for chapters and verses at the moment, but I can cite a number of instances in the Gospels where Jesus placed basic compassion ahead of legalist or doctrinal concerns. I would also point to the parable of the goats and the sheep as an example of what Jesus considered most important as well as the greatest commandments.
I have to go to dinner. I can make a more coherent staement on this later, if you wish.
Well, right. I don’t see where we’re disagreeing thus far. For example, Jesus pointed out the silliness of not casting out demons on Sunday (in technical violation of the Sunday repose law), because the Sabbath was made for man and not the other way around. Or there’s the good samaritan story. Or whatever. I agree.
I’m just not seeing where there has to be a competition between compassion and evangelization, since again, they’re meant to be the same thing. (I’ll point out: one is not required to preach as one distributes food. If, however, I am wearing a cross around my neck while doing so, it does make clear that it’s part of my Christian service.)
I wrote a paper on last year on why Christianity should favor government welfare programs (to a limited extent, anyway), and much of it dealt with how the Christian evangelizes in his service to the poor. I’d be happy to send it to you or post relevant portions here. I’m looking forward to your more coherent statement as well.
Ok, RIL, I’m back from dinner. I’m now going to compose my little thesis, so hang in there. I’d be happy to read your paper, you can send it to me at the e-mail address listed in my profile. I’ll be posting my statement presently.
I don’t think we’re going to end up disagreeing, by the time we get done here. 
I just reacted rather quickly to your first couple of posts, and after reading your last one I probably misunderstood where you were coming from. I’ll know more after I read your paper, though.
I think that “evangelism” meant something different to Jesus than what it means now. I don’t believe that Jesus was trying convert people to a new religion but was trying to announce that the prophesies ahad been “fulfilled” in the sense that the Kingdom of Heaven was already at hand.
Ancient Jews did not have the same concept of Heaven and hell as what we know now. The expectation in Jesus’ time was that the Messiah was going to bring about a new paradise on Earth. Jesus was proclaiming that a new era had come. He called it the “Kingdom of God.” Jesus conceived this kingdom as an egalitarian utopia which did away with some of the legalistic and ritualistic aspects of a culture which was rigidly stratified socially and which was obsessed with ritual purity.
Jesus taught that what mattered was compassion, and if there was ever a conflict between compassion and the law, Jesus always chose compassion.
His communal dining broke the social taboos of a society where who one dined with affected one’s social and “spiritual” status.
His unauthorized “healings” of people who were believed to be spiritually impure made Jesus, himself, ritually ‘unclean.’
Any number of statements and parables about the law being less important than love. eg. “It is not what goes into your mouth which will defile you, but what comes out.”
The two “greatest commandments” were love God and love thy neighbor. In the parable of the sheep and the goats, jesus defined these two commandments as synonymous, (“Whatever you have done to the least among you, you have done unto me.”)
I feel that, for Jesus, the Good News was that “The Kingdom of god is among you now.” Spreading the gospel meant spreading the message that love could transform society. Jesus says over and over that the most important thing is compassion. He rarely, if ever, talks about belief. I know that John 3:16 is cited as the motivating verse for modern evangelism, but John was the last gospel written, is the furthest removed from it’s source material and it’s frankly doubtful that Jesus ever said it. In Matthew 5:14, Jesus said "You are the light of the world. I suspect (after years of studying this stuff) that the saying in Matthew eventually evolved into the oft cited one from John (and it wouldn’t be the only saying or pericope of Jesus to evolve over time) in order to project a new interpretation of Jesus’ life and ministry.
Even if I stay within a strictly Christian context and allow that Jesus did say “I am the way and the light and the life…” it is not obvious exactly what he meant by that. It is possible, for instance, that he meant to hold himself out as an example of a total commitment to love as the only way to God.
In any case, I do not see Jesus giving anything like the kind of emphasis to doctrinal proselytization as he does to living a life of compassion. To go way back to your first post in this thread:
I would disagree that Jesus would say that it doesn’t necessitate helping the poor. As a matter of fact, his followers are pretty much mandated to help the poor, or else (see Matthew 25:46).
Jesus always tells his disciples to heal and feed people first and evangelize second. He also tells them that if the people at a house are not interested in their message the apostles are to “shake the dust from their feet” and move on.
I confess that my study and conclusions have been basically academic and not devotional. I’m not a Christian, and some aspects of what I’ve said are contradictory to Christian doctrine, but I think that if you just read the words of Jesus, himself, without regard to the commentaries of Paul or the gospelers or others, you will see an overriding mandate for compassion and love rather than dogma.
Well, the actual website is here: http://www.reclaimamerica.org/
Now, while it doesn’t take $1,000,000 for a book contract, keep in mind that Dr. D. James Kennedy is a rather big name in evangelical Christian circles nowadays; I would think his name recognition among evangelicals is scarcely less than that of Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson. For him and his ministries (especially Coral Ridge), raising $1 million is probably like a drop in a bucket.
Heck, he’s probably more well-known than Texe Marrs
Ding-a-ding-dang my dang-a-long-ling-long!
Hmmm. My Diocesan Commission on Racism made a video about racism within the Episcopal church for, I think, less than $1,000 dollars, although I think the videographer donated his time. I know it did not take up a significant amount of the Diocese’s budget. I’ll have to see if I can get back here with actual numbers. It’s professional and very powerful. Of course, what would a bunch of liberal Episcopalians know?
A friend of mine is also working on a book about religion and quantum physics which sounds fascinating. Now, he’s an established science and military fiction writer with around 70 books to his credit, and I think this is his first foray into non-fiction. Nevertheless, he hasn’t seen any need to expend any extraordinary amounts of money on this, meaning it’s not costing him any more to write this book than it has any of his others. Of course, if it were going to cost him $1,000,000 to write it, he wouldn’t right now, and, if he tried to raise the money in public, I suspect there’d be a certain amount of outcry, since he’s Wiccan.
My gut instinct is someone needs to tell this fellow the scripture reads, “Feed my sheep”, not “Fleece 'em.” Also, the ACLU has defended the rights of Christians, sometimes against other Christians. From what I’ve seen of the groups they’ve defended, they seem to be in favor of the smaller and marginalized groups, whether it’s the KKK, Atheists, or someone else. Since I get the impression that one of the founding ideas behind America was protecting the minority, however unpopular, that strikes me as quintessentially American. Then again, that’s just one person’s opinion.
CJ
Over a million dollars to make a video about the ACLU? If he’s already on TV, he must have camera people and equipment already in the budget. Maybe he just needs the money to convince him that it’s ok to let them film something besides him for awhile?
After all, he’s got to go somewhere while they’re filming right?
I mean, c’mon, don’t you guys read the bible?
I’m just in a weird mood this morning. . .
