This is an attempt to open a debate on proselytizing = the idea that it is a necessity to convince other people of the existence of God.
This goes not about the various methods that were/are in use by proselytizers.
The subject is:
If you are convinced that God needs you to be known, why do you need God for anyway.
If God isn’t able to convince humanity of His existence all by Himself but needs his creation to do the job for Him, what sort of powerless God do you have in mind?
Atheists are most welcome to give their view on the whole business.
Salaam. A
Aldebaran, I think the simplest and most common answer to your question is that no, of course not, God doesn’t need his followers to proclaim him. He is able to make himself known quite well without any help (and despite hinderance) from us.
However (speaking for the Christian), Jesus nonetheless commands his followers to go out, make disciples, teach them Jesus’ words, and baptise them into His kingdom.
So it’s not done because it’s needed, but because it’s commanded.
Since Christians take Jesus for God… If in their teachings Jesus the God commands it but God doesn’t “need” it, then why the command? To keep people busy or something like that?
If I knew all the reasons for all of God’s commandments, following them would be a heck of a lot easier.
I can guess at a few possible reasons:
– It forces his followers to know & understand their faith better
– It teaches humility
– It exposes them to spiritual & intellectual challenges
– It teaches obedience in difficult circumstances
That’s just off the top of my head; I could probably come up with more. (I should also point out, before someone else does, that all proselytizers do not necessarily learn these things)
You can do all of that without going around trying to get people to your side, no?
You need to know and understand your faith merely to be able to teach it to your children.
I don’t see what proselytizing has to do with humility. (To me it shows the opposite mindset).
You are exposed to spiritual and intellectual challenges merely by studying or even reflecting on an other religion, if that is what you mean by being challenged.
The mere fact to accept difficulties and losses in life without losing your faith and trust in God, is for everyone enough challenge to be “teached obedience in difficult circumstances”.
I don’t see what all of this has to do with the idea that God needs you in any way for no matter what.
Of course God could “convince” all of humanity that he exists, even those who are unwilling to let themselves be convinced, or at least resistant to the idea. Whether he would resort to such forcible means is another matter.
Sadly, it’s all too common for skeptics to assume that this implies inability on God’s part, and that this somehow renders him powerless. It’s a classic logical fallacy, but a common one.
You’re right. There are other ways to develop knowledge, challenge your faith, et cetera. And doing something that you know is going to make you ignored, ridiculed or even hated is what I meant when I said it teaches humility.
That’s because he doesn’t. I meant to say that in my first post – God doesn’t need us.
When I used to teach, I could obviously do any assignment I gave to my students, so why did I give them assignments?
For them to grow. To gain knowledge and understanding. To be participants, rather than passengers.
I’m not sitting here with a cite or a proof; obviously all I can do is extrapolate from what I believe to be my experience, and others’ experiences, with God. But for whatever reasons, the Judaeo-Christian God clearly expects humankind to be participants in the work of salvation, rather than intending to accomplish it all by waving a wand to make us all shiny happy perfect robots. (Admittedly, given the tremendous evils that have taken place in the world just during the past century, there’s an argument to be made for shiny happy perfect robots, but let’s keep the discussion narrow enough to get somewhere.)
My personal theory is that what God wants out of the human experience is company: that he wants the end result of whatever the entire process might be, to be our growing into beings that he would enjoy conversing with: “'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.” (Rev. 3:20.) Obviously, we can only reach such a point by a long road through which we own our experiences, rather than live passively.
OK, that’s what I speculate God gets out of the deal. How about the evangelizers?
For me, entering into what I believe to be a personal relationship with Christ has been by far the most remarkable, amazing experience of my life. If you see a really good movie, you’ll be telling your friends all about it, exhorting them to see it. Trust me, that’s nothing compared to finding God. Hopefully that should explain the evangelist’s motivation to your satisfaction.
Jesus asked His followers to go forth and teach the good news of the Kingdom of God, also to heal and help others. This has become distorted over the years into exhorting others to believe and trying to scare them into it.
When I had my near death experience and came into the presence of a very loving and compassionate higher intelligence I was very elated. I wanted to shout the news to everyone, but soon realized most either thought I was crazy or become very afraid of me. So, I, like most NDE experiencers will spend time with anyone who really wants to know, but will ignore and stay away from those who don’t.
Oh, yes, my site is a matter of choice for others, read it or not.
I love what RTFirefly had to say in terms of speculation.
However, bottom line is this, Aldebaran:
Why in the name of all that is holy should a devout man like yourself prostrate himself five times a day in the direction of one of Saudi Arabia’s capitals, and if possible make a pilgrimage there and run around a cubical building containing a probable meteorite?
The only reasonable answer is that you believe God commanded it, and as His Servant you are honorbound to obey His commands.
Why then does the idea that God, speaking through His Christ, commanded that we proclaim the Good News of His salvation, and that we do it in faithful obedience to His Word, so exercise you?
It was once explained to me (by a proslytiser) as follows:
“suppose you are standing in the middle of the road unaware that a car is racing towards you about to hit you. Should not I, as a fellow human being, at least warn you about the oncoming car?”
Unlike many people, I quite enjoy being proslytised to by people who think they know all the answers. Quite amusing really, whichever religion they are from, because I know for a fact that they do not know all the answers even if they think they do.
I find the whole idea that God would need humans (for no matter what) the summum of human arrogance.
So I ask why God would be in need for humans to be known and make it a command for humans to go around to let others know of His existence.
I’ve seen a few answers trying to explain what they see in this, and that makes sense for explaining their interpretation.
Yet my main objection to the whole proselytizing “command” remains, namely :
If you believe in an uncreated transcendent Creator, the whole idea that you would have any power to “make people believe” - let be that God would need your power - has no ground and is only denegrating this Creator to a being that depends on humans.
I think over-religious people tend to have religion at the center of their otherwise lackluster lives and feel the need to vent out this passion. They cannot understand how others don’t see the life the same way they do.
Others are of the more loving kind... they feel they need to save other souls I suppose. Out of charity they try to save us. Then a few are shocked when they meet an openly atheistic person... and babble on. The same way I feel uncomfortable around them too.
Overall I do agree with Aldebaran... if God is so mighty... why have humans doing his PR job. Destroy Soddom and Gommora again... open the Red Sea for the Israelites to invade Egypty back, etc... that will convince me more than anything.
A question of why God would need or want anything, especially if you’re speaking of the supreme, sovereign, omnipowerful God in the Christian mold, is not a question to ask of humans. It is a matter of faith, for those of us from evangelical religions, that God has commanded us to do so, and that’s that, just as God has commanded other things which do not run in line with most human reason or logic.
There are hundreds of practices in Judaism, Christianity and Islam which could be looked at and questioned, “Why would God, who is so ar above and beyond the actions of mere humans, want us to do _______? It makes no sense.” You can fill in those blanks yourself, keep a sabbath, eat only kosher (or halal) food, pray at certain times and with certain words, go to specific places, refrain from going to certain places, and on and on. But to those who believe, the explanation begins and ends with “God said to do so and so I do so.”
Who has ever said that they wish to “make people believe” or have any ability to do so? If you’re speaking specifically of Christians, this is not our command, the command is straightforward and simply to tell others of Christ and the redemption inherent in belief in Him. The process which leads those people to belief once they have heard the Gospel is strictly between each of them and God, no other person is a part of that and I don’t know anyone who thinks that there is any power that they have personally or bestowed upon them by God which can “make people believe.” Power to know the best words to share with people, yes. Power to magically transform their minds to create a genuine belief, absolutely not.
The question is not whether God needs us for anything. To quote my own faith tradition, “If he chose, he could make children for Abraham from these rocks.”
Rather, it’s what He expects us to do – His choice, that instead of magically appearing to, say Czarcasm and saying, “Here I am; worship Me,” He expects Czarcasm to listen to my views and make up his own mind on whether to follow Him or not, and if so, how. But to provide the witness for His existence and loving nature, He sends those who have already come to know Him to testify as to who and what they have learned Him to be.
It’s a spastic methodology – but it preserves and protects free will, which He seems to consider important.
