[QUOTE=tomndebb]
So, we have laws sanctioning, (not necessarily enforcing or demanding) the death penalty for apostasy within eight countries in the region that is most associated with the most extreme branches of Islam. And these nations, comprising roughly one third of potential Muslims in the world (355,417,589 according to the CIA World Factbook), are (with the exception of Sudan) nearly 100% Muslim themselves, imposing ancient Islamic law while the other two thirds of the Muslims in the world, (including those in well over twenty other nations that are predominantly Muslim), have no such law and you infer from that that Islam is a monolithic entity that demands death for apostasy rather than seeing a situation in which different cultures and different nations have responded in diverse ways to the ancient laws.
Typical of your logic.
[/QUOTE]
Once again you fail (or refuse to) to see the forest for the trees, Tom. Once again you hide behind the weird argument that a concept or idea must apply in 100% of the Muslim world to call it really Islamic.
So a mere eight Muslim countries (containing a mere ONE THIRD of Muslims or 355 million people :eek: ) have laws that sanction the murder of a human being for deciding to leave a religion. This fact can be swatted away as unimportant?
Imagine if I were to tell you that a mere eight western countries with say, a mere 350 million potential Christians still have laws that sanction burning heretics at the stake!
Furthermore, vicious persecution of apostates exists in many more than those eight countries.
You have conveniently ignored the fact, as I posted earlier, that in addition to the countries providing for the death of apostates: "Even in countries where the death penalty is not legally enforceable, there may be other punishments for apostasy, such as the dissolution of marriages in cases where an apostate spouse is married to a Muslim, as well as imprisonment, disinheritance, or corporal punishment. "
Dissolution of marriage can include having your children takn away from you. I will admit that such a practice existed in at least one western country. French Protestants could have their children seized. But that was in the freakin’ 16th century, NOT the 21st!
Now, I realize that I originally mentioned only the DEATH penalty for apostasy. So if you care to nitpick, I will now “squirm” and “backpedal” out of my original position and point out that the sources I consulted also show that other Muslim countries provide severe penalties without actually providing for execution. Flogging and imprisonment may be slightly better than death, I suppose. I guess we can just sweep those facts off the table on the grounds that Valteron is up to his usual backpedaling.
But your reply, Tom, implies that inhuman and gross persecution of those who reject Islam is some sort of odd historical artifact that does not really apply much in contemporary Islam. If you cling to the fact that a mere one-third of Muslims live in countries that actually sanction death for apostates (still an enormous minority) I suppose you can pretend that. But the following facts, taken from the Wikipedia article, beg to differ.
Note that Egypt, not one of the eight originally mentioned, can get pretty brutal with apostates. As can mob violence, often with the state looking the other way, in the **Palestinian territories, Turkey, Nigeria, Indonesia, Somalia, and Kenya. ** What is your total when you add all those up, Tom?
Note especially that the last item refers to **GERMANY ** for goodness’ sake. And I have personally been told by a friend here in Canada, an ex-Muslim who has been here since the 1970s, that he no longer defines himself as an ex-Muslim, because the growth of Islam in Canada makes him afraid to say so.
Now read these facts:
"Since the 1990s, the Islamic Republic of Iran has used death squads against converts, including major Protestant leaders, and under President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, engaged in a systematic campaign to track down and reconvert or kill those who have changed their religion from Islam.
"In 2003, Egyptian security forces arrested 22 converts and people who had helped them. Some were tortured, and one, Isam Abdul Fathr, died in custody. Last year, Gaseer Mohamed Mahmoud was whipped and had his toenails pulled out by police, and was told he would be imprisoned until he gave up Christianity.
"It appears that actual state-ordered executions **are rarer ** (emphasis mine) than killings by vigilantes, mobs, and family members, sometimes with state acquiescence. In the last two years in Afghanistan, Islamist militants have murdered at least five Christians who had converted from Islam.
“Vigilantes have killed, beaten, and threatened converts in Pakistan, the Palestinian territories, Turkey, Nigeria, Indonesia, Somalia, and Kenya. In November, Iranian convert Ghorban Tourani was stabbed to death by a group of fanatical Muslims. In December, Nigerian pastor Zacheous Habu Bu Ngwenche was attacked for allegedly hiding a convert. In January, in Turkey, Kamil Kiroglu was beaten unconscious and threatened with death if he refused to deny his Christian faith and return to Islam.”
On March 21 2006, the Algerian parliament approved a new law requiring imprisonment for two to five years and a fine between five and ten thousand euros for anyone “trying to call on a Muslim to embrace another religion.” The same penalty applies to anyone who “stores or circulates publications or audio-visual or other means aiming at destabilizing attachment to Islam.”
Converts and Baha’is are not the only ones subject to such violence. Ahmadis, whom many Muslims regard as heretics, suffer a similar fate throughout the Muslim world. The victims also include many Muslims who question restrictive interpretations of Islam. In traditionally moderate Indonesia, Yusman Roy is now serving two years in prison for leading prayers in Indonesian and Arabic instead of only in Arabic.
In April 2006 after a court case in Egypt recognized the Bahá’í Faith, members of the clergy convinced the government to appeal the court decision. One member of parliament, Gamal Akl of the opposition Muslim Brotherhood, said the Bahá’ís were infidels who should be killed on the grounds that they had changed their religion.[25]
On January 21 2007, the Central Council of Ex-Muslims was founded in Germany, an association lead by exil-iranian Mina Ahadi and turkish-german immigrant Arzu Toker. The association stands up for former muslims who chose to apostate from Islam. Shortly after going public on February 28 2007, the group received death threats by radical islamists."
Now my point is not that Muslims in Toronto or Dearborn, Michigan are 100% in favour of killing and torturing apostates, and it is specious and pointless of you to constantly point that out. You are very close to creating a straw man with that argument.
The point is that in dealing with Islam, as Sam Harris says in “The End of Faith” it is as if a portal in time had opned up and our wold is being flooded by people from the 14th century.
The arrogant attitude by which a state or a mob allows itslf to kill or torture those who do not agree with their “truth” and the attitude that believes you can have a taxi licence at an American aiport and yet impose your religious “truth” on alcohol on innocent passengers who just want to get home may seem different, but they spring from the same source.