Minnesota trial of Derek Chauvin (killer of George Floyd) reactions

[DeadTreasSecretaries]

Yeah, I agree on the 1st degree. Maybe what he did was premediated murder. But they could build a rock solid case on the unintentional forms of murder in a way that they couldn’t with any intentional murder.

I don’t know what else the defense could have argued. I’m a bit pleasantly surprised they didn’t just find as many excuses as possible to bring up drugs and try to get the jury to associate Floyd with a drug addict who would be easier to dehumanize. Cynically, I don’t think the path to victory for Chauvin was ever going to be a logically convincing case - it was going to be to find a way to get the jury more emotionally on his side than Floyd’s. I guess it’s a good sign that the defense didn’t go that route, but went for the option of hoping that the jury would have a very high threshold for reasonable doubt.

Maybe the defense could have also tried harder to find more expert opinion arguing that Chauvin’s actions were justified, but it’s possible this case was so toxic that a lot of experts weren’t going to go down in history as someone who testified that Chauvin was right to kneel on Floyd’s neck (also just possible that Chauvin’s actions were so egregious and so far out of the playbook that they couldn’t find anyone reputable to testify regardless).

[Akaj]

@DeadTreasSecretaries

I don’t think cops getting convicted every time there’s a controversial police shooting should be the goal. There’s no way you’d be able to prove most cases that they did anything but possibly make a poor choice in a split-second decision, and obviously there’s no universe where that would be a good outcome if it were possible.

The goal should be that avenues exist to hold police accountable for abusing their power, and that when these avenues are pursued the police and the justice system at large is willing to pursue justice even if it means “turning against” one of their own. That’s what happened in this case, but there are many cases where it does not.

(bolding mine)
Police make mistakes, and some of those mistakes are fatal. These are abuses of their power, but when they’re not explicitly criminal acts, what does accountability look like? The cops can be and often are fired, but is that enough? The departments often pay large settlements, but is that enough?

I’d like to hear just one of the cops in these cases express genuine contrition. I fucked up. I wish I could go back and change it. I apologize to the family and the people of (my city). I believe that would go a long way toward providing the kind of accountability that would feel like progress without deepening the current divide between LEOs and communities of color.

[DeadTreasSecretaries]

I think the current avenues for accountability (losing their job, getting sued or getting prosecuted) are good. The problem is that at a lot of points in the systems that are in place to handle those issues, bad cops get protections they shouldn’t get. From politicians who don’t give them adequate oversight, from a lot of people in the justice system (prosecutors, judges etc.) who bias in favor of cops, and from their fellow cops who typically rarely turn against their own.

It’s a tough problem to solve. This outcome was a great step, but I don’t know what the next step is as far as increasing accountability and making it more difficult for someone like Chauvin to be in the position of power that he was. The strategic choice of putting pressure on a lot of people in Chauvin’s department to cover their asses was effective - that’s something I hope continues going forward.

[DrDeth]

@Saint_Cad

I get that not all, and probably very few, complaints against LEOs are justified. The difference is that with us civilians if even one major complaint sticks we are fired. And in my profession of teaching, one major F-up and you are done forever. Doctors lose their licenses, lawyers get disbarred.

My goodness, try and get a lawyer disbarred. It aint easy. Or a Doctor.

And as a Fed, with some of the same protections, (Not a LEO however) I had several complaints including a few from a drug cartel. Nothing came of them. I said above my wife gets lots of complains from people who think they dont have to wears masks in her store.

Disbarred lawyers face career, personal hurdles

[DrDeth]

@BigT

This type of logic doesn’t make sense to me. Why in the world would they think that the BLM crowd would riot? That only makes sense if you think (1) black people are so stupid they wouldn’t realize they won or (2) black people are so violent that even a celebration would become a riot.

BLM isnt violent. But they can & have been infiltrated by groups and individuals trying to turn peaceful protests into riots. It works too damn often.

[DrDeth]

@Akaj

I’d like to hear just one of the cops in these cases express genuine contrition. I fucked up. I wish I could go back and change it. I apologize to the family and the people of (my city).

They are not allowed to, their lawyer and the Cities lawyer wont let them. Sometimes it is part of the settlement, but rarely.

[bobot]

Black Lives Matter hasn’t been infiltrated. If randos take to violence in the streets, they do that themselves for the love of Pete.

[DrDeth]

@Moriarty

Another smart decision by the prosecution, in my opinion, was to not overcharge the case. For those who think a first-degree murder conviction would’ve been appropriate, I caution you that the implications of premeditation make conviction exponentially harder. Consider the Casey Anthony case as a prime example of that.

San Jose tried that on two violent Hells Angels who beat up a guy so he died. They presented Murder 1, after all those guys had violent records, etc. But the defense simply hammered down the point they they had never met the guy before, it was a overreacting to his grab assing a girl. The defense admitted they wanted to teach him a lesson, but not kill him. Acquitted. Now, if the DA had charged manslaughter it would have been a slam dunk.

What is Chauvins motive? No motive, Murder 1 is almost impossible.

[Akaj]

@DrDeth

They are not allowed to, their lawyer and the Cities lawyer wont let them.

Yeah, I know that’s the likely reality.

[Machine_Elf]

@Akaj

Police make mistakes, and some of those mistakes are fatal. These are abuses of their power, but when they’re not explicitly criminal acts, what does accountability look like?

Mistakes do not constitute abuse. Mistakes, even grievous ones, are made in good faith; abuse involves deliberately and self-indulgently causing harm with the full knowledge that there’s no good reason for it.

Some mistakes are so far beyond the pale that penalties are warranted. Kim Potter is facing manslaughter charges for accidentally shooting Daunte Wright. That was a mistake, one so bad that it may merit a prison term - but it’s not what I would call abuse.

Eric Stillman made a fatal mistake in shooting Adam Toledo, but I don’t think that was abuse either.

[Akaj]

@Machine_Elf

Mistakes do not constitute abuse. Mistakes, even grievous ones, are made in good faith; abuse involves deliberately and self-indulgently causing harm with the full knowledge that there’s no good reason for it.

I was using the word more in the sense of “alcohol abuse.” Many are trusted with alcohol, and a few misuse it even if their intentions are benign. I was looking at police power the same way, though I realize the parallel is inexact.

Regardless, I think we share the view that even the most honest mistakes in policing require strict accountability when lives are destroyed or diminished.

[StraightTalk]

@bobot

@orcenio

Its worth reading Minneapolis police’s original statement which (after knowing the truth) reads like something from 1984 or some hellish dystopia

That utter bullshit statement ought to be a crime in and of itself. Fucking disgusting, Minneapolis PD, simply fucking disgusting.
“To Serve And Protect”
To serve themselves.
To protect murderous cops.
Sick.

Is it possible that they were pressed to provide a statement but they didn’t have all the facts or information and this is what they came up with?

[Gorsnak]

If you don’t have all the facts or information, it’s pretty easy to issue a press release that states that you don’t have all the facts, the matter is under investigation, and you’ll say more when you know more. Making up exonerative bullshit is not acceptable.

[StraightTalk]

@Moriarty

Another smart decision by the prosecution, in my opinion, was to not overcharge the case. For those who think a first-degree murder conviction would’ve been appropriate, I caution you that the implications of premeditation make conviction exponentially harder. Consider the Casey Anthony case as a prime example of that.

Additionally, I wonder how much of a disservice the defense did to its own cause by raising certain issues that (in my opinion at least) were ridiculous.

For example, claiming that the gathering crowd somehow intimidated Chauvin was simply implausible. Not only did Chauvin have back up that was there specifically for the purpose of controlling the crowd, but the crowd’s complaints were directly related to Chauvin’s use of force. If he wanted them to calm down all had to do is simply get off Floyd’s neck.

For the defense to argue otherwise risked alienating the jury, who might conclude that the defense was desperate and grasping at straws.

Of course, that’s just wild speculation on my part. Unless and until we hear from an actual juror, we’ll obviously never know how deliberations went down.

I think the defense was trying to build a pile of things that contributed to George Floyd’s death and was hoping that all of those things together would be the substantial cause of death instead of what Chauvin did being the substantial cause of death.

I’m not sure there is any other defense case that could have been provided.

[Northern_Piper]

@StraightTalk

Is it possible that they were pressed to provide a statement but they didn’t have all the facts or information and this is what they came up with?

I expect that the press release will be one of the factors that the federal review of the Minneapolis police force will take a look at.

[Saintly_Loser]

@Machine_Elf

Some mistakes are so far beyond the pale that penalties are warranted. Kim Potter is facing manslaughter charges for accidentally shooting Daunte Wright. That was a mistake, one so bad that it may merit a prison term - but it’s not what I would call abuse.

Or the killing of Botham Jean, in Dallas in 2018, under circumstances that are still so murky that I can’t say with certainty that I believe his killing was a “mistake.”

The officer who killed Botham Jean was convicted of and sentenced for murder.

[orcenio]

I’m convinced it was a mistake, in that she thought she was killing an intruder (because otherwise she would be a stone cold pyschopath). However, I don’t think that her mistake excuses invading a person’s home and killing them.

If I was a member of the jury I’d say

"I know you were sleepy, that you thought you were home, that you killed Jean out fear (also a sense of righteous vengeance), and that you were mistaken.

Still, guilty on all counts. You willfuly invaded his home and shot him dead; no questions asked. Being wrong matters. Your actions matter. Jean is dead; it REALLY matters. "

Of course Guyger tried to put the blame and capability on Jean which does make me think she is callous and doesn’t fully appreciate her actions.

[rocking_chair]

one of the alternate jurors has given an interview. she stated that dr tobin was very convincing to her.

Alternate juror in Chauvin trial speaks out about case, witnesses, guilty verdict: Exclusive - CBS News

[DavidNRockies]

[RANT]

Y’know …

I reread the Summary of the DOJ report on Ferguson, Missouri that I linked to in post #751. It’s a fascinating and compelling read. Maybe 10 or 15 minutes.

Now, maybe Ferguson, MO was the only town in the USA where the findings would have been what the DOJ found in their inquiry, but … oh … I tend to doubt it.

What the DOJ found was pretty much emblematic of what “systemic racism” looks like. Couple it with a whopper of a perverse incentive (driven by revenue, not public safety) and the result is horrifying and deadly.

And that racism has pervaded the history of this country since its inception. It has been thoroughly and mercilessly baked in. There are very few serious arguments to be made against that. It has always been a powerful current in this country and the current has never reversed its flow. Not for even a moment in time. The most it has ever done is to flow a bit more slowly at times (“The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice”).

[and those who think that current flows the other way now are laboring under the aphorism, “To those accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.”]

it’s never about “bad apples,” and – just as the DOJ Ferguson report mentions – it’s never about “personal responsibility.” Those are red herrings and ideologically void slogans designed to prevent much-needed reform (by epistemologically denying the very existence of deep-rooted problems).

It’s about systems and history. It’s about institutions and their potential dangers. It’s about how beliefs and prejudices get baked in so very deeply and die so unimaginably hard. It’s about base human nature. It’s about tribalism. It’s about the Stanford Prison Experiment¹ writ large.

I appreciated the DOJ’s look at Ferguson, Missouri. I appreciate that they’re going to look at Minneapolis PD. But when do we start taking the same look at the criminal justice systems of each and every major city in the United States ? Let’s go in declining order of population, or randomly start conducting inquiries into any of the largest cities in the country so nobody knows when it’s their turn.

You think Ferguson was an anomaly ? I can’t imagine.

[/RANT]

¹ Stanford prison experiment - Wikipedia

[bobot]

@StraightTalk

Is it possible that they were pressed to provide a statement but they didn’t have all the facts or information and this is what they came up with?

No.
(Post must be at least 5 characters, so here they are. Up yours, discourse character requirer.)