What happens if there’s an (obvious) error on a play but the out is still made for whatever reason? Is an error still recorded? Or is there not an error since it technically didn’t allow a runner to advance or get on?
For example, if J. Francoeur threw to 2nd, but it was a horrible throw and the runner tried to advance to third, but the pitcher threw him out there - would there be an error?
If no advantage is gained by the hitting team there is no error.
However, in your example there is possibly an advantage (the runner reaching second) so an error would be recorded. If I’m reading you right, and there were no runners on, it would likely be scored a double, out advancing 9-6-1-5 (or something). If instead the wild throw was trying to get the runner at first it would be E6 (for example), out 6-1-4 (or whatever).
At least that’s my thinking.
Depends. (Isn’t that always the way??)
In your example, say the batter singles to right and tries to stretch it to a double. Francoeur would beat him easily with a decent throw, but it isn’t a decent throw. It’s so bad the runner tries to take third, only is thrown out–then yes, the scoring would be
single
E9 permitting runner to reach second
runner thrown out at third.
But if the hit was clearly a double and even a good throw by Francouer isn’t going to get him at second, then there’s no error (on the theory of no harm, no foul). An error would only be charged if the runner actually reached third, which he didn’t. So the scoring would be:
Double
Thrown out at third.
Another example: dropped popup by 2b, batter hustling around first, tries for second, is thrown out, 2b to ss: E4 permitting runner to reach first, runner thrown out at second 4-6.
but
dropped popup, batter ambling down the line, thrown out at first anyway: no error, play goes 4-3.
Of course there are many plays where an infielder knocks down or bobbles a ball but recovers quickly enough to get the batter at first. It might look unattractive, but no error is charged.
And don’t forget that you can’t assume a double play will be made. Slow batter, runner at first. Batter grounds to short, who throws to second for the first out, second baseman throws wildly to first and doesn’t get the easy out. No error.
Unless the throw is so wild (e.g.: into the dugout or the stands) that the batter is able to pass first.
IIRC, if a fielder butchers an easy pop up that is a foul ball, it is an error. Even if the batter ultimately strikes out.
Is it incorrect to say that an error is the final reason for the advancement of a runner if no other case applies? Thus any other reason for advancement would trump an error call?
Can someone confirm that whether a play is scored as a hit or as an error does not, and cannot, have any actual effect on the result of the play or the game? Either you reach base safely or are put out - the circumstances leading to that make absolutely no difference as to the game - it’s purely for player statistics.
If that’s correct, why is it part of the official rules, with an actual official making the determination if something is a hit or not?
Correct. An error on a foul ball that prolongs a time at bat is scored as an error.
I guess the reasons for errors being scored at all are:
1- To have a way to measure the the quality of your fielders
2- To more accurately measure the performance of a pitcher. Runs that wouldn’t have scored without errors aren’t earned runs.
3- To more accurately measure the performance of hitters. If a batter gets on base for a hit ball that should be an out, he shouldn’t be treated as if he hit a screaming liner.
Of course errors are actually pretty bad (or at best neutral) at measuring all 3 of these things:
Errors (and the derivative fielding percentage) are a horrible way to measure fielders as they don’t account for range at all. A SS that doesn’t get to the ball is shown as better than one that gets there but boots it. Similarly with OF. We have much better tools for measuring defense ability than errors.
From what I remember RA is pretty much identical to ERA at predicting future pitcher performance. Turns out that pitchers that give up a lot of unearned runs also give up a lot of earned runs. In some ways ERA is worse in that a pitcher can have a fielder make an error on the third out and then give up 10 runs and none of them count against his ERA. Surely some of those runs are the pitchers fault.
This is perhaps the best one, but even then I’m not sure it makes much of a difference. Individual hitters just don’t get much of a boost from errors - certainly not enough to mask their true ability. Added to that, it turns out that the range in which hitters perform on balls in play (which are the only ones that can end in errors) is actually pretty small - most of the variation in hitter quality comes from things like K%, BB%, HR%, and various hit type rates.
I highly doubt we’d know any less about any of these 3 groups if we stopped counting errors altogether.
It is part of the official rules because it matters to sports fans that accomplishments be accurately counted. Most team sports have such things; hockey has a rule concerning how players are credited with assists, though obviously that does not affect the outcome of the game.
Incidentally, the relevant section of the rulebook here is 10.12(5) which states that an error is chanrged if a wild throw allows a runner to reach a base. There is no allowance for the error to be rescinded as the result of a subsequent play
Francouer would be charged with an error.
As to Jas09’s point, it should be noted that in fairness, back in the days when errors were considered really important, fielders made a LOT more errors than they do now, and the difference between fielders in terms of just making or not making errors could be extremely dramatic. In the late 19th and early 20th century the difference between players in defensive prowess could be astonishingly vast, and was more similar to what one would expect of high level NCAA ball today, whereas today the expectation in the major leagues is that you don’t make errors. 100 years ago, in 1913, Detroit shortstop Donie Bush made 56 errors; Philadelphia A’s shortstop Jack Barry made “only” 32, so there’s a fair number of plays in there. Last year, no American League player at ANY position made 20 errors, much less 20 more than another guy, and almost every AL player who even made 10 errors was a middle infielder or a third baseman, where it’s expected you’ll make errors. Errors are now so uncommon as to be a relatively unimportant stat, but back in the day they were plentiful, and differed greatly between teams and players.
It is not uncommon for a no-hitter or a one-hitter to be thrown by a pitcher in a game which includes a decision made by the official scorer that might have gone the other way with a different scorer. Just as the perfect game that was ruined by a bad call by an umpire with two out in the ninth, no hitters are lost (or not) by judgment calls. Of course the decision by the official scorer can be changed.
IIRC Roberto Clemente got his 3000th hit twice. The official scorer in his next to last game awarded him a hit on an infield grounder but later reversed it ruling the fielder had made an error. Clemente hit a solid double for the 3000th hit the next day. Without official scorers baseball records would have no meaning at all.
Yes. An error is charged if it prolongs an at bat.
An excellent point and one I should have mentioned. When errors are common its obviously more important to account for them in measuring a pitcher or batter’s skill. Not so much today when, as you said, nobody really makes enough scored errors for them to matter.
Which isn’t to say we shouldn’t look at defense when considering pitcher and batter performance. That’s what the entire field of defense-independent statistics is about - rating players based on true outcomes (contact rate, quality of contact, power, pitcher control, pitcher swing-and-miss rate) rather than what happened to occur after the batter hit the ball.
I don 't understand this last sentence. Without official scorers, Clemente would have 3,079 hits, or whatever, but he’s still have a lot of hits, and 3,000 hits would still be a remarkable achievement that people would celebrate. You don’t need the judgment of an official scorer to count hits.
Actually you do need someone to act as an arbiter over what is and is not a hit. Without some sort of official imprimatur who would decide what is and is not a hit on each close play? How many no-hitters would Nolan Ryan have if there were no official scorers? Maybe the exact same number he has now and maybe more, or less. It can be compared to the steroid issue in a way. With steroids having been used by many, most or at least a few players over the past generation or so we can never be sure if e.g., Jay Bell’s 38 home runs was an indication of his talent or his health regimen. In the absence of official scorers we would have the same doubts about that which we did not see.
Francouer would not be charged with an error in the example given. (Batter hits single and goes for a double; fielder makes bad throw to second.) This is different than a force play, in which the throw is judged to have been in time but erroneous. There is no guarantee that even a good throw retires the runner. For example, the fielder could throw to the fielder in time, but the fielder doesn’t get the tag down in time. No error. This is similar to a runner stealing. The catcher’s throw could sail into center field, but it is a stolen base with no error unless the runner got up and took third. Also, the catcher could throw to the base in time, but the fielder doesn’t get the tag down. No error.
I’m sorry but no, that’s not correct. The OP states it was Francoeur’s “Horrible” throw that enabled the runner to get to second. If Francoeur’s throw is what allowed the runner to get to second safely, that should be counted as an error, full stop. There is no other way to interpret the rule:
If it is because of the throw that the runner got to second, then that is an error. The runner was permitted to advance a base.
If it is doubtful that the throw would have gotten the runner anyway, no, it’s not an error. Ulf the Unwashed clearly spells the scenarios out in his first post.
Obeseus is arguing that it is impossible to ever officially say that the wild throw enabled the runner to reach the base, on account of it not being a force play.