OK, ok. I know that sounds inflammatory. But I’m looking for something talmudic, here.
Another broker here at work, of some southern christian persuasion, told me earlier this week that he used to date a ‘Modern Orthodox’ jewish woman and that she told him they couldn’t do anything kinky. He suggested threesomes, she shot him down, he suggested opening the relationship to swinging and she shot him down. He claims she told him that due to being Modern Orthodox she was stretching the definition even to go to bed with him before they were married.
Now, while I didn’t say this to him - he’s a younger man and why kick him - I figure it’s more likely not a religious restriction of some sort but that she just wasn’t into it and used that as a catch-all shield to shut him down. I was raised Jewish - it didn’t really take - and dated a lot of Jewish girls and women when I was younger as mom and her friends conspired to set us up ‘just in case it worked’ (no kidding, actual quote from a girl’s mom). Of those girls I dated, while I don’t recall what type of Judaism they followed they were certainly sexually active.
But hell, I don’t know the talmud very well at all. I wouldn’t be super surprised if there was something in there that said, ‘monogamy only’ or ‘no swinging’ or ‘leave the group and kinky sex to the non-Jews’ or whatever.
I figured you guys were my go to for random questions. Who’s got some info and citations for me?
Yep, and just because someone is willing to violate one rule ( at least under certain circumstances*) doesn’t mean they are willing to violate others.
It’s not clear to me what “before they were married” means , but it is not uncommon for people whose religious beliefs do not allow premarital sex to make an exception when there are definite plans to marry.
Based on what I know about Orthodox Judaism from my own family, and what little I’ve learned elsewhere…
Sex *within *a marriage is to be celebrated and enjoyed provided both parties are ritually pure (there’s a bit about menstruation and the mikvah, and men occasionally need a ritual dip, too, but I don’t want to get bogged down with all that). Sex outside a marriage is a sin and isn’t supposed to happen.
All the “kinky” stuff you mentioned involves sex outside the marriage - the third part of a threesome, swinging, etc. Including the pre-martial sex. That is not OK.
Some types of “kinky” stuff within a marriage - consensual bondage, sex toys, feathers, etc. - would be perfectly OK because sex in Judaism doesn’t have to result in procreation, it’s perfectly OK to enjoy sex for its own sake and pleasure.
If one of our more Orthodox members contradicts any of the above please take their word over mine.
Abraham had a wife and a mistress, Jacob had two wives and two mistresses, and King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 mistresses. Men in the Bible weren’t exactly expected to be monogamous. Women, OTOH…
Of course, Orthodox Judaism doesn’t believe in biblical literalism, and *Modern *Orthodox Judaism even less so. Still, it had to be said.
Slight gripe: the concubines you mention were not mistresses (or sex slaves as some imagine). 2nd class wives would be more accurate, mostly having to do with the inheritance rights granted to offspring.
I don’t believe Judaism (or Christianity) ever puts a hard cap on having more than one wife. Rather, it’s understood a single man married to a single women was God’s original plan & intention.
Hinduism (which is loosely a religion per the western definition) has numerous examples of polyandry, polygamy and sex outside of marriage, in the “holy” texts.
And then there is the Kamasutra and many temples dedicated to sex. It would have been difficult for the Kamasutra “researcher” to describe orgies, homosexual sex, …etc if the religion only allowed sex with spouses.
That’s the cultural part of it. In modern India, polygamy/polyandry is not allowed by law for Hindus, Christians, Jews, etc. Muslims are allowed to have 4 (I maybe wrong on the number) wives.
These rules are found in the Mishna. Religious girls would not be sexually active. Sex is treated with the utmost dignity, it is no excuse that a religious Jewish girl would not try anything kinky that would defile the sanctity of sex. And, while I cannot say for sure if sex can be for pleasure between a religious married couple, I would bet sex is supposed to be only for procreation, like devout Catholics, I understand.
That’s quite accurate, if by “stretching the definition” it means “violating.” But ignoring her willingness to engage in pre-marital sex (it’s not a violation of Biblical law, but is definitely beyond the bounds of what Orthodoxy, even “Modern” Orthodoxy, considers proper), these other things are certainly not allowed by Jewish law.
Alessan:
Well, aside from the fact that polygamy has been banned for Ashkenazi Jews since the year 1000, even Biblical polygamy didn’t involve threesomes and swinging. The relationships were still seperate one-to-one. (Also, Solomon was condemned for having too many wives; while monogamy was not expected, there was a limit.)
Orthodox Judaism absolutely does believe in Biblical literalism. Where Rabbinic interpretation seems to veer from the literal meaning of a given verse’s words, it is because other verses themselves indicate that different interpretation.
Not true. Where those who consider themselves more modern differ from the Haredi/“ultra” Orthodox is in matters of custom and excessive stringency, not in the core belief in the literalism of the Bible per Talmudic interpretation.
Dark Sponge:
There’s a hard cap on the number of wives a Jewish king should have, which is 18 (as I said above, Solomon violated this and was condemned for it); the cap on ordinary men was as many as he could support (with food, clothing and sex) and treat equally.
HeyHomie:
Anal is clearly allowed. Not 100% certain about fellatio. Cunnilingus is OK in the dark, but a man is not supposed to gaze at his wife’s actual opening.
Nope. My research (cursory, I know) shows that within the bounds of marriage, just about everything is a “go,” and sex just for pleasure is to be celebrated. That means oral, anal, BDSM, and whatever else floats your boat is good for married people.
I dunno; in what I’ve read of the Kama Sutra (which isn’t much, because that book is a lot more boring than you’d think), it’s pretty much taken for granted that the couple are already married (though probably in an arranged marriage of neither of their choosing).
You’d lose that bet; sex for pleasure by a married couple is both allowed and encouraged in Judaism. The bond between husband and wife is holy and is spiritual as well as physical; sex enhances that even if they are not in a state of fertility at the time.
This is incorrect (or, at a minimum, a misinterpretation). While Catholic teaching is that sex should be reserved for married couples, and that it should always be practiced with an openness and willingness for conception as a result of sex (hence, the prohibition against most contraceptive methods), it is not meant to be “only for procreation.” The fact that sex builds and supports the emotional bond between partners is also explicitly stated and encouraged. Not only that, but it’s explicitly stated that sex which is performed solely for the sake of conception is also prohibited.
As per the Catechism (in the section about the Sixth Commandment):
Ninjaed by cmkeller. He’s a good writer and explainer, and probably has more time than I do. Maybe I’ll post something later, if more questions come up.
Song of Solomon references enjoying the fragrance & fruit of and blowing on a “garden” just when things start to get extra steamy between the couple. I suspect they aren’t ceasing their activities to run outside and check on crops. Seems pretty clear oral is going on.
Poetry is tough to interpret even in the best of circumstances, and the Song of Solomon is poetry par excellence. If you want responses, it would help to cite a specific chapter/verse.
The famous temple carvings I saw at Khajuraho in central India depicting a multitude of sexual adventures definitely involve much more than a single married couple. Perhaps the sex practices on the walls at Khajuraho were not addressed in the Kama Sutra, but some wild times were happening in India in days past.
