Moneyball: I KNOW Billy Beane Is a Great GM, But...

I don’t think there is either. And I certainly grant you that keeping players through their early years, when they’re cheap, is a valuable and important strategy. And maybe Beane raised this strategy to an art form, I don’t know.

But it certainly wasn’t a brand new strategy, and it doesn’t seem like a particularly revolutionary strategy either–it seems like something any decently-run money-challenged team would do. In fact, there are plenty of players since the free agency era who were kept by their teams only as long as they were relatively cheap; when arbitration or free agency arrived, they were gone. Lots of these guys predate Moneyball.

Here’s one example: the Pirates of the early nineties. Over just a few years they got rid of a whole host of players when they hit 5-7 years of service time, notably Barry Bonds, Doug Drabek, Jose Lind, Denny Neagle, John Smiley, and Bobby Bonilla. Some left via trades for younger, lower-priced players, some to free agency. In fact, IIRC, about the only young player the Bucs kept during this period was Jeff King.

The Pirates at the time were a very fine team that like the Athletics ten-fifteen years later never did manage to make the World Series; eventually, again like the A’s, they ran out of good players in the pipeline, sustained constant bleeding of the players they had developed or traded for when they were young, and became a sub-.500 team. (Actually, I never noticed the parallels before. I’ll add to that that King was a 3B, as was Eric Chavez, the only big player the A’s kept.) In terms of using players as long as you can afford them, then, and letting them go when they get too expensive, there’s plenty of history before Beane was a GM. And again, it just doesn’t seem like a Plan of Genius.

And I understand your argument that San Diego didn’t much want Zito, but I’d still say that anyone who is drafted ninth in all of baseball is somebody who is quite well regarded (even if maybe not by the Padres). Think about it: if the A’s didn’t think someone would’ve grabbed him later in the round, why waste a first round pick on him? Take someone with that first pick that you’ll miss out on later if you wait, and go for Zito with your second or third-rounder. Or, if he’s really that poorly regarded, wait till his name comes up in the tenth round or the twentieth. That would seem like Billy Beane strategy to me–don’t just take the guy you want, take the guy you want when it’s to your best advantage to do so. And even if Zito didn’t get a contract offer that suited him when Texas picked him in round 3 a little earlier, being picked in that round puts him in the top 75 or so amateur prospects that year–that’s pretty decent.

So, if your point is, Not everybody wanted Zito as badly as the A’s did, that’s probably true and I’ll happily concede it. If your argument is, Nobody else really wanted him, well, the evidence doesn’t support that.

Nobody else really wants Zito now, does that count? :wink:

BTW, I should add that I know about the deal with Jeremy Brown (is that his name–the catcher who was drafted by Beane over the objections of his scouts), in which Brown was chosen first so the A’s wouldn’t have to pay him standard slotting bonuses. I don’t remember this being mentioned as something the A’s did with Zito, and to the best of my admittedly vague recollection Oakland gave him a perfectly reasonable signing bonus for a ninth pick. If the A’s did game the system with Zito the way they did with brown, I’ll be happy to backtrack on (some) of the comments above–though if Zito went in the third round a year or two earlier (which I had forgotten) it seems that he still had some significant value to somebody beyond beane.

I’m not arguing that he was the only, or the first, to do this. i’m simply saying that, in evaluating the teams that he has put on the field, one factor to take into consideration is not simply how good the teams are, but how good they are in relation to how much they cost. I mean, that’s really at the heart of the whole issue here: exploiting the market in ways that gives you value for your (limited) money.

Sure, although “got rid of” implies a choice. I most cases, the choice for these small-budget teams boils down to “Trade him now while he still has some value, or lose him for no return when he become a free agent.” Beane, like other GMs, recognizes that reality and does his best to maximize the quality of his team within it.

I’m not really defending the idea of Beane as a genius here. I just think he has been, on the whole, a pretty good GM for a relatively cash-strapped team. And my bigger point about pitchers was not simply that Beane pioneered the idea of getting as much as possible out of cost-controlled players (he didn’t), but that the pitchers that he got were a part of his overall strategy.

By this logic, though, there’s no such thing as a good first-round draft pick, because by definition a first-round draft pick is a desirable prospect. It seems to me to be a rather tautological proposition.

But the whole moneyball argument isn’t about Beane picking players that no-one else wanted. While one can never predict with complete confidence who will and will not be a successful major league baseball player, the fact is that any player picked in the first half-dozen rounds or so is likely to be a pretty desirable player, at the very least one that is thought to have a decent chance of making the big leagues.

What Beane was doing here is not picking people that no-one else wanted. He was evaluating the players using somewhat different criteria than many other GMs, and those differences led him to value players slightly differently than other GMs. It wasn’t about picking some guy who had never picked up a bat before, it was about finding a guy who most people thought was a third or fifth of eighth round pick and grabbing him a bit earlier.

Also, if you remember, part of his strategy was not just about picking certain players earlier than expected; it was about going to them beforehand, telling them that he was going to pick them earlier than they ever expected to be picked, and negotiating with them to ensure that they would sign for less money than that draft position generally warranted. By doing that, he paid less for some of his high-position draftees than he would have paid if he had selected a more conventional candidate at that spot.

You have a rather tenuous relationship with the facts in discussions of baseball stats and the more general issue of sabermetrics, as well as a tendency to throw epithets around when referring to people who make sabermetric arguments. I decided a while ago that it’s not worth the effort of engaging you on the subject.

Billy Beane is a good GM. I would like to see where in this thread anyone takes it to the point of “adoration.”

I listed the names for you. You can use all the invective you like instead if you think it helps you in some way. Beane wanted, and still wants, guys who pretty much suck, and he can’t be convinced they suck because he has some numbers that say they don’t. That is basically why his team sucks.

Apparently one of the high points of the film is his arrival in Boston for an interview, as if to show he’s “made it” in his career somehow. With a combination of superior resources and and superior approach, he’d have made the team unstoppable, right? Want to know why he didn’t get the job? Because he was adamant about his first act being to get rid of Jason Varitek - for not drawing enough walks. :smiley:

Given that the evidence is against his being even an average one, it’s hard to explain otherwise. The book and the film themselves constitute adoration, don’t they? And those who think they tell a factual story are, therefore, doing what?

Obviously I understand that the nickname is a joke, but then, I’m not the one who said it was somehow “wrong on every count.” Because that isn’t a thing that somebody who understands the point of a nickname would do. I’ve heard that Albert Pujols’ father wasn’t even a king. That shit is totally wrong.

If you’re trying to tell me that your post was intended as a joke, yeah, I’m going to need RickJay or somebody to explain it to me.

He did get the job. He turned it down. But I suppose you’ll just say you were joking, like how you were joking about the Youkilis thing, or the time you said Theo Epstein wasn’t the GM of the Red Sox when they traded for Josh Beckett.

No.

I haven’t seen the movie yet, but obviously the book is not “adoration” - in fact, Lewis’s portrayal of Beane is. in a lot of ways, not very personally flattering. Beane comes off as something of an asshole.

I’m not convinced you’ve read the book, in fact, and I’m quite sure you haven’t read much of Michael Lewis’s work. “Moneyball” isn’t mostly about Billy Beane, just as “The Blind Side” isn’t mostly about Michael Oher and “The Big Short” isn’t mostly about Goldman Sachs. Lewis’s recurring theme in his books is markets that fail in their assessment of value. The point of “Moneyball” is not that Bill Beane is a perfect genius; it’s that a business over a century old could still be dramatically wrong in his evaluation of its most important asset. You don’t even need Bill Beane to make that point; you could have written much the same book about John Schuerholtz and the Atlanta Braves, who had arrived at a similar conclusion but from a different angle. “The Blind Side” similarly examines the issue of the value we place on people, in that case from two directions - one, the change in the game of professional football and how it values different types of player, and the other the case study of how an immensely valuable young man was just a hairsbreadth from being thrown away by society because he was born the wrong color and in the wrong part of town. “The Big Short” is about how the entire financial industry failed to understand the value of the very assets they were using to build themselves up.

If someone reads “Moneyball” and comes away thinking it’s a Billy Beane lovefest, they missed the point.

Not only that, but the point is also NOT that Billy Beane is never wrong about a player, that he never makes mistakes, or that his system is 100 percent reliable.

Which is, of course, the implication in Elvis’s laundry list of complaints.

“Oooh, Billy Beane didn’t think Prince Fielder was any good. He must be an idiot.”

“Oooh, some of the guys that Beane drafted never played in the majors. So much for his system”

Way to miss the point.

The movie is far from a love fest. I did see it. But it marks a demarcation in the thinking of baseball. It about Beane having to find a way to compete with the big money teams. The timing was lucky that James and his followers had opened a door that Beane could walk through. Beane was smart enough(could have gone to Stanford) to understand the stats . He became a believer and ran with them.
The movie is mostly about the reaction of the old guard ,which was portrayed ,I think, accurately. I know damn well he had to fight the scouts and baseball men who felt their experience and knowledge was the final input.
Beane and James actually have won. They changed the game forever. How can you downplay that?

Do you know what a strawman is? How about misrepresentation, then? Or even childishness? :rolleyes: Why the hell do you feel the need to poison every single baseball discussion here by acting out like this? Never mind, I don’t really care what your reasons are. Just try to be more responsible in the future, m’kay? Thanks.

gonzomax, I disagree with your observation that they “changed the game forever”. Teams that use the best baseball judgment in scouting and drafting and player development still develop the most top talent, and teams that can do that, and have the financial resources to fill in any holes, are still the winners. That hasn’t changed a bit. Teams hampered by front offices with a history of poor baseball judgment, such as Oakland, are chronic losers. That hasn’t changed a bit either.

RickJay, he says he accepted, then turned it down. That’s easier to explain publicly than being rejected, huh? Oddly, the Red Sox never announced it, nor did Beane ever state his reasons for changing his mind so suddenly about something he had wanted so badly. Occam points to something else.

Psst, Jimmy - I was joking too! :smiley:

[Moderating]

Keep the comments to a discussion of the ideas that posters are presenting, not allegations about their personal attributes.

[/Moderating]

Occam points to his interviewing for the job, having it not being offered to him, but he then lies and makes a fairly public display of debating whether to take the job, then announcing he’s going to stay in Oakland, and all the while the Red Sox say nothing? That’s your Occam’s Razor scenario?

Beane interviewed for the Red Sox job. They offered it to him. He said he would think about it, which he did. Ultimately, he decided the personal costs (uprooting his family, etc.) outweighed the professional benefits, so he turned it down.

I’m sure I would think that a job with some giant chemical corporation in New Jersey at twice the pay would be awesome, but who knows how I’m going to feel about actually taking the plunge? Moving across the country, breaking up relationships, taking the kids out of school, etc.

Just remind me again, will you, who was it that peppered his first post in this thread with terms like “fantasy-type shit” and “geekism-oriented,” and who contrasted supporters of sabermetrics with “real baseball people” and people with “actual…baseball knowledge”?

Do you recall who that was? Any clue? Need a hint?

Yeah, those chronic losers, who won more games than any American League team not named the Yankees over a seven-year stretch. The team that went to the playoffs 5 out of those 7 years (including 4 division titles and 2 seasons with over 100 wins), despite a payroll that was typically well into the bottom half of the major leagues.

You’re hilarious. Do you have any actual evidence that he was rejected? Any at all? Surely Occam’s Razor doesn’t point us in the direction of a conclusion for which there is no evidence whatsoever, does it?

Also:

Mnookin, in writing this book, probably had even greater access to the Red Sox than Michael Lewis had to the Athletics. I’m not sure what more evidence you would need to accept that Beane had actually been offered the job in Boston. But i’m sure you’ll find something to quibble about.

You do realize that the three best teams in the American League right now are, in fact, Moneyball teams, right? Sure, two of them happen to be flush with cash, but their approaches are far more Billy Beane than Joe Morgan. And the third team is the Tampa Bay Rays, whose GM executes the Moneyball mantra of “identify and pursue undervalued assets” better than anyone in baseball, including Beane himself.

Billy Beane’s Athletics were stupendously successful for a period of more than half a decade, during which a book came out that extensively detailed his approach to player evaluation. After the book came out, virtually every other team in the game adopted many of his tactics. Almost all of these teams have a shit ton more money than Oakland. And somehow people are surprised that Beane’s success tanked shortly thereafter?

IVES, just go to the ESPN site. Check the stats section. Then you will see there is an option for expanded stats which include most moneyball type stats. Then check the Sabermetric box and it reveals about 10 more stats that only a stat lover could understand.
Yes it changes baseball forever.

I really liked the book. Haven’t seen the movie yet, but even my wife wants to see it. As a Dodger’s fan, all I really can add to the discussion is:
Thanks for the Milton Bradley/Andre Ethier swap!

The Yankees don’t really have a reputation as being a front office driven by quantitative analysis. I am sure they have analysts, as they have far too much money not to devote a few hundred thousand to it, but they don’t have the same reputation as teams like the Red Sox, Rays, and Rangers.

FWIW I think the reputations of AL teams are as follows:

Yankees - old school
Red Sox - new school
Rays - new school
Blue Jays - new school
Orioles - old school
Tigers - old school
White Sox - old school
Twins - old school
Indians - new school
Royals - old school
Rangers - new school
Athletics - new school
Angels - old school
Mariners - new school

Actually, i think the Orioles are Special School.