Which, IIRC, was the crux of the GQ thread: What’s one supposed to do. This thread was started by Gus because he decided, all by his lonesome, to get bent out of shape when I bothered to actually provide a factual answer to a question of fact.
I am not an expert in Army terms, but I think the CIB is supposed to mean he has faced combat, while the EIB is school trained only. “How likely” in this case is 100% likely, as long as I understand the Army lingo.
Your factual answer to the question certainly is what should be done according to all the rules in all the rulebooks. No questions about that. The OP question itself negated your answer, “What are you supposed to do with the enemy when taking a prisoner isn’t feasable (sic)”. All the rules say to take him prisoner, but the question says you cannot. Hence the Catch-22. But your position in this is very clear now.
Monty, are you aware that one can earn Expert Infantryman, Parachutist, and Ranger qualifications without seeing combat? And the ONLY way to get a Combat Infantryman Qualification is to have been in combat for 30 days or a lessor period BUT having won the Purple Heart in that lessor period? So, it’s incredibly likely that a PVT with a CIB has seen more combat than a SSG without one.
I’m fully aware that the EIB, the Parachutist, and the Ranger quals are not combat-dependent; and also that the CIB is combat dependent. I still doubt that it’s all that likely that a PV1 (if memory serves, that’s someone who’s been in the Army between 1 day and 6 months) has seen more combat than a SSG. Of course it could happen–I asked how likely it was.
Unfinished business:
Metalhead: You’ve now called me a troll twice. The second time was in this thread after a mod warned you the first time not to do that. The first time was in the Deaf people & voices thread (link’s in the 2nd quote below), which BTW is where the mod warned you not to pull that stunt. In that thread, after you accused me of being a troll, I asked you:
Your only response to date has been:
I asked for proof of what the problem is. I asked for proof that it’s meI’ve been causing whatever the problem is. You’ve provided neither. You’ve neither defined the problem nor provided any evidence that I’m the one causing whatever this mystical problem is.
Therefore, I demand an apology from you.
Drat. “…meI’ve…” should obviously be “…I who’ve…”
Ranger, while we are on the subject, if a soldier has the EIB, and then sees 30 days combat as prescribed in the CIB requirements, is the CIB worn instead of the EIB, or are both worn, since they mean different things?
Let’s not forget that those without either a PMOS or SMOS of Infantry or Special Forces aren’t eligible for that, even if they’re with the unit and under the same fire. At least that’s what I gleaned from AR 600-8-22.
Monty, come to the pit and bring the truth with you.
Monty, come to the pit and bring…
your truths with you…
Because of the posts in this thread …
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb…&postid=2616822
…
I want to talk about half truths of omission, innuendo and misrepresentation to civilians.
Yes, you are a veteran, so am I, so what?
Yes you served in those places and times, so what?
The Geneva Convention says what it says.
Your MOS is not relevant and neither is mine.
Were you personally in an exchange of gunfire with an enemy? Not you ship, not your airplane, y9ou , on the ground, up close and personal? Were you ever in a position to be present at the capture of a prisoner? You implied to the young civilians on this board that you had been there / done that. Have you? What did you actually do while in the military?
Why is a lack of actual combat so big a deal? I was in the Special Forces. That does not mean that I was out on deep insertion and can speak with authority on what is in mission orders or what actually happened in places I was not at. You imply that because you were in the military that you have that capability, … … Feh!!!
You also would not answer the questions about what really happens, yeah, was not the OP, well here it is the question and I don’t care what your MOS was, or anything that you have said about where you were in general terms
I want to know what you actually did. Not all the smoke and mirrors you do so well, what did you do that you can prove? Heck, just make a clean claim about what you did.
I opined that to admit that I broke the “LAW” in a public form about “murder” would be a silly thing to do. I am not even saying or insinuating that I was ever in the position to do so. You have made that claim with your weaseling and double speak.
You insinuated that you were in actual combat. Now we both know that you did not really say that, I do know a bit about what you actually did in the service.
Did you ever “Go there”?
I don’t think you will own up to it. You know a lot but get stuck in the black and white because you were never in the position to have to just do it, right or wrong, but right now, live or die. To imply that you were is not cool. IMO.
I make no claim about such matters concerning myself but it really winds me up to see you doing this again and again.
Prove me wrong, ok?
You won’t but I do want there to be a note to one and all about your ability to use smoke and mirrors about yourself.
As someone said, you were correct in your answer. But in a most dishonest manner… IMO
This is the OP and these are the questions. Not the other thread, this thread — as stated in the op. Will you Monty, answer the question of what you actually did in the service?
UncleBill, You’d shitcan the EIB after you got your CIB. Just as a Senior Parachutist would dump the Parachutist wings, a 1st LT would lose the brass bar, and a CPL would remove his PFC stripes. Though I’d imagine that there would still be a notation on someone’s records that they had, in fact, earned an EIB.
Monty, we had a little miscommunication up there. I said a “buck private”. I was referring to a private (e-2). You said a PV1. I’m not quite sure what a PV1 is. In my day, we called e-1’s Recruits, though officially they might have been Private Recruits or Recruit Privates. And in the dim recesses of my memory, I recall that some PVTs (e-2) spent their entire tour in Nam without getting promoted. Or getting promoted and busted back down to e-2. So I stand by my statement that a PVT can have more combat experience than a SSG.
Oh, and Monty, Cavalry (and back in wwII and Korea, Armor) units can get the CIB also. Or back then they could.
Jacksen, yes. Those who stood around and waited served. Also those who stacked cartons, repaired equipment, counted silverware, operated typewriters, etc. Everyone in the Army was an 11-Bravo. (Basic Light Infantryman)
Have I totally confused any readers with no military experience with my jargon/abbreviations?
*[ Ensign Parker ] Gee, I love that kind of talk. [ /Ensign Parker ] *
Sounds like combat to me… You forgot to tell us what the you / the convoy commander, the lead driver, did in that situation. What did you/they do? You were along, you had a decision to make personally? Just curious ya know since you ‘know’ what I want to know. LOL I do not want to put down anyone’s service. ::Sheesh::: it is all honorable and needed.
I want to know what Monty did in the service. You (Vic) did 4 months of Somalia land. What else you did I don’t know. I don’t know if you ever had to make the decision. Did you? If you had been in the lead vehicle? The only vehicle, what were the standing orders? etc etc… But this has nothing to do with the OP, remember someone always going back to the OP ??
So far, in this whole thread, the OP has not once been answered. Answer the OP please. Oh, you can’t, you don’t know what Monty did in the service, or do you?
You may go back to the OTHER thread and say what you did, or would do in all the different variations of the question. Did you have to make the decisions? If so, what did you do? But that has nothing to do with the OP of this thread. The OP is about one thing only. What did Monty do in the service.
Try it this way… I would not ask nor pay any attention to a pilot about what he says he would do about taking prisoners in relation to what a foot soldier behind the lines should do. No matter the rule books he had read, in combat, he has never had nor is he likely to ever have to make the decision. That does not impinge on his value to the military. It just means his opinion on that particular subject is to a large degree meaningless. Nothing personal.
Now we have Monty telling us all about the rules. Then it got off into (what if’s) and we had some real combat soldiers chime in. Monty did not handle that well IMO. So I ask, Monty, what did you do in the military?
So I start a pit thread that asks, — Monty, what did you do in the military? Heck, he might have saved an entire fleet for all I know. That would be great, being a mess cook would be great. It is all necessary and honorable. I maintain that Monty has not done anything in the taking prisoner realm nor was he ever in a position where he would have to. All he has to do is say what he did in the service. That is all. Every one is sputtering about the way I am trying to call him a liar. I do say he is lying by omission because he will not say what he did in the service, just drags out the smoke and mirrors.
*Originally posted by GusNSpot *
Sounds like combat to me… You forgot to tell us what the you / the convoy commander, the lead driver, did in that situation.
No convoy that I was ever in ran over anybody, thank God. Other convoys did, however. I’m not going to say any more about the other convoys, becase it’s part fact, part rumor and part speculation.
The highest rank I got in the Navy was E-4, which for my rate (i.e. job) didn’t mean a whole lot, so I was rarely in charge of anything, and during my time in Somalia I was a fresh E-4 so I wasn’t in charge of jack squat.
As to my convoy, the lead driver just slowed down so the kid could get out of the way. So we took our chances with the ambush and got away with it. I don’t know if that was the right call to make or not, if we had been ambushed and taken casualties our lead driver probably would have been in a whole world of shit (because we’d been warned that Somalis might try the ol’ “push a kid in front of the convoy” trick), but we weren’t and he wasn’t. Such is life.
I remember getting a brief refresher course in searching and handling enemy prisoners while in Somalia, but they didn’t say anything about when to take prisoners and when not to, probably because our commanders thought we’d always be in the city (Mogadishu) and that help would always be close by. This was near the beginning of Operation: Restore Hope, when the US Marines ruled the city and the Somalis were mostly still afraid of us, not later in the operation when the UN was in charge and the Somalis were restless (as depicted in Black Hawk Down, I was long gone when that happened).
As to the OP:
Your claim: Monty “implied to the young civilians on this board that [he] had been there / done that.”
You know what? I just re-read every single one of Monty’s posts in the original General Questions thread and I don’t see Monty imply that he had ever been in a position to take/execute prisoners. In fact, he doesn’t even mention that he’s ex-military in that thread, although I know he is from past posts.
Frankly, I think you fucked up when you claimed that Monty was lying about his service (by ommission or otherwise), I think you should own up to it, and I think you should apologize to him.
Sorry for any mis-spellings or malformed sentances, but it’s late and I’m too tired to care.
Reminds me of the time we were in the field during basic. The Drill Sergeants were oh… about 100 yards away when they dispatch Armbrister who double times over to where a group of us were standing around trying to look like soldiers. She says, "Drill Sergeant needs two E2s right now. We scurry around and have a difficult finding 2. Everyone seemed to be either an E1 or an E3. Finally, with too much delay to be comfortable, we send two E2s at a dead sprint, back with Armbrister. From 100 yards we watched our Drill Sergeant come completely unglued… shouting and Armbrister and her two E2s are now pushing and rolling over. Turns out, he wanted two E-Tools , short for “entrenching tools”… irl… a freaking shovel.
:d&r:
Vic says;
Please note the following…
use of “UCMJ” indicates military knowledge – weak I know…
…cough, cough… sizing mine of course.
Got to be a member of the military to do this, right?
…cough, cough … IMO of course… sure looks like he is insinuating that he is military to me …YMMV
…cough, cough …
So vic, what other screen names have you had in the past that you used to follow Monty’s trails though the jungles of the rule books as he has posted in his career here and there? You have more than 4 months?
GusNSpot and CatBiker have been doing so for over 5 years. Big :: whoope:::, I know.
Now My introduction to Vic =
Because you have asked so nicely? – yeah yeah, the pit I know.
I came out the first time I ever saw you and acted just like you did towards me huh? Geeee, your style reminds me of somebody…
Back to the OP, why should I listen to Monty about real combat? You have better references than Monty IMO… Took you a while to get there and you make no claim as to being the man with the answers… See???
The pit rants require your approval and validation also, just like Monty says?
The OP asks a very simple question. So far, it has not been answered.
Maybe this analogy will clear up what I am talking about? And maybe not.
(IFR = instrument flight rules
PIC = pilot in command time)
In other words, why should anybody take your words about the rules and the claims that they are the ANSWER to all situations in IFR flight? You rode in an airplane and read the FAR’s? You are telling non-pilots and pilots who fly the IFR system that you have the answers. These people should listen and not be warned that it is not necessarily so in the real world?
Gee, I might ask to know why you say what you do and imply that you are sure that this is all covered in the FAR’s and people who say, “Hey wait a minute.” Are … what was it … goat-fletcher or something wasn’t it? LOL
You have how manny hours of actual IFR PIC time logged?
The rules say this and that. Cool… The OP is about how manny hours of IFR PIC time you have? Lots or none, makes no difference except it allows people to put credence where it might be realistic.
I can tell buy your comments that you do not have any real IFR PIC time. That does not make you a bad guy, but those who have not been there will now know that your info, as far as the real world, could need added to…need a bit more defining. So I ask, How much IFR PIC time do you have?
So the OP is a simple question to Monty.
“Gawd I hope the analogy to flying did not totally confuse you.”
A Front Line Combat Infantry Battalion can have Admin, Supply, Logistics, Motor Transport, Mechanics, Armorers, CMS Custodians, Intel, NBC, Communicators, Medics, and even Aviators, as well as trigger pullers. I’m fairly sure Monty was not a trigger puller, but I do not know that. He said he was in Combat Units, never that he was a trigger puller.
I. Don’t. Care.
Vic says he was Navy with the Marine MEU in Somalia. My guess is Corpsman, although he could have been a Doctor or Chaplain, or Naval Gunfire Liaison Officer or something else. Navy personnel in the MEU are generally not trigger pullers.
I. Don’t. Care.
Vic has more to contribute to this discussion than I do, and my PMOS was a combat arms MOS, 7204, and I participated in the ground assault into Kuwait with the 2nd MarDiv during Desert Storm.
GusnSpot - better see a doctor about that bad cough. It seems to keep flaring up on you.
Gus: You’re proving yourself, rapidly, to be a raving lunatic in addition to being a complete moron in this thread. In case it’s escaped your notice, there are even civilians who have actual knowledge of what both the GC and the UCMJ say.
What a worthless piece of work you’ve proved yourself to be.
p.s. You might want to never again change the stuff you quote from other posters. I understand the site management here frowns on that stunt.