Hey, Anthracite! That’d make a cool sig! Mind if I snag it?
Be my guest to use anything I babble about as a sig. 
Issue one: I would be Missing-My-Point-GIRL, thank you very much. The clue is that I am married (legally) to poster PLDennison which is documented numerous times on the people pages of the SDMB. I made sure you were male before addressing you with a gender reference.
Issue two: I responded to what you wrote and quoted, not what you might have “meant”–as I said previously, I don’t generally read the pit nor do I equate being embarassed by TMI with nearly vomiting over a violent act. Once again, you reflect the societal concept that sexually explicit content is somehow worse than graphic violence–consider how frequently sexual content versus violence is edited, filtered or labels in entertainment (movies/tv) for the masses…a man can have his face blown off on tv, but a female breast (which isn’t EVEN sex) is blurred to protect the innocent ones who might be watching.
Issue three: Hi Opal! Sorry we upset you (and another else not expecting such a graphic item)–I mean that sincerely. I know you are an equally sensitive soul. I don’t personally become physically ill (vomit) when I read the depraved and abusive things people do to animals and people, but I have been known to become nauseated and burst into tears over the news items.
Actually, I’ve heard,(well, read) many Dopers refer to their pets as being like their children.
An example of humankind’s sometimes disproportionate zealotry when it comes to protecting animal rights, and the bad name these frothing loons can give a righteous movement:
It should not surprise you that absolutely NOTHING happened with this legislation.
pldennison, you insinuate that I HAVE tortured or killed animals. No, I haven’t, I love cats. I could just as easily twist YOUR words, you say you haven’t killed a cat but you didn’t say anything about dogs you’ve killed. How does that sort of assholish remark strike you. Fair? Unfair? Knock it off.
The reason I use the word Philistine repeatedly should be obvious. Here is a dictionary definition:
“A smug, ignorant, especially middle-class person who is regarded as being indifferent or antagonistic to artistic and cultural values.”
And that is what I am seeing. People are seizing this opportunity to bash artists not over animal abuse, but because they hate artists. These are separate issues. Even if the incident occurred and is confirmed by the police, there is STILL nothing to indicate that this was done as an artistic endeavor, except a couple statements from third parties who wanted to cash in on the publicity.
I will answer your question with another Hirst artwork, and you can draw your own conclusions.
I insinuated no such thing. If you gleaned that from what I wrote, I’m afraid I’ll be required to begin making sarcastic comments about your defensiveness and reading comprehension abilities.
Oh, it’s manifestly obvious. It’s because you don’t have the most remote idea what you’re talking about.
. . . he said to the musician with lots of friends in the arts community. That reminds me to ask my friend Jill, who is a working sculptor and painter and works at the Cleveland Institute of Art, what she thinks of this story.
See, you’re ascribing motives here on the basis of information that you simply don’t have. For some reason, you can neither accept that artists (particularly performance artists) have killed animals in the process of making art before, nor accept that those who are generally supportive of the arts can be outraged both by the cruelty exhibited and by the creative bankruptcy underlying such projects.
This demonstrates as clearly as possible that you are, to put it bluntly, speaking straight from your rectum.
So let’s see–first, you said that it didn’t happen at all. No cat was killed, no tape was made. Then you say that maybe there was a tape made, but it was fake. Then, maybe they really did call the cat and tape it, but not for an art project. Gee, try to cover your ass much? Is the next revelation of information from the Toronto PD going to make you retreat even more?
Call the cop. Or are you afraid that in fact these people did do this for exactly the reasons state? Afraid you might look foolish for making pronouncements which you are horribly unqualified to make? I’ll call him on Monday and save you the trouble.
You know, I was going to post a nice, rational reply. Then I realized that only about 30 fucking people have done so already, with exactly zero results.
So, Chas.E, Mythos45, and Bad Hat: you have posted absolutely nothing to show that you are not unmitigated assholes. You’ll insist that you aren’t animal torturers, but your callousness disturbs me. Stay the fuck away from my cats.
I have no need to call the toronto cop, because he’s already said everything he is legally allowed to say. And he’s not going to add anything further. Go read his statement and emails again. All he’s done is confirm two people were charged with animal cruelty. Nothing more. Nothing about art, tapes, etc.
I am perfectly fine with being proven wrong and that the incident happened as you think it did, AS LONG as there is EVIDENCE to that fact. I doubt YOU would be so open-minded. Your mind is already made up. So much for the SDMB’s goal of fighting ignorance.
But of course, the smug sophisticate needs philistines to condemn in order to feel sophisticated amd intellectually superior to lesser mortals. Or is that “mere” mortals?
And how were they obtained? Were they killed quickly and painlessly or were they tortured?
How did these people die? Were they murdered by the artist or did they die of natural causes or some other, non-criminal reason? Are you aware that it makes a difference HOW the animals and people in question died and whether or not the artist is responsible for their deaths?
No, people are expressing their outrage, disgust and fear over the actions of three arguably sociopathic individuals. Their claims that they were attempting to create art is merely their attempt to excuse their actions. It’s not impossible that these sick fucks enjoy torturing animals and at one time realized they can do all they want and get away with it if they can convince others that they do it for art.
I suggest you read the story again. Try these excerpts:
This tells us how many are involved and the identities of two of them.
“Mr. Power” is obviously one of the accused! That is a first-hand statement, not a statement from a “third party” as you allege.
You REALLY ought to retract some of the things you have said if you don’t want to end up with the reputation of being a moron.
We shouldn’t torture the guilty, IMHO.
If a cat is killed accidentally and the person is genuinely upset, contrite and remorseful and tries to make amends, it is not a crime. If a cat is killed deliberately, slowly and painfully for the killer’s entertainment and enjoyment, then a crime has been committed. See the difference?
Roaches aren’t killed just because they are ugly, but because they carry infectious diseases. Also, it’s doubtful that insects even feel pain. They know when their bodies are damaged, but because their brains are so small and simple, it’s unlikely they feel pain at all.
Sounds like MY grandfather and several other relatives. However, I doubt that your grandma was deliberately and maliciously forced to contract cancer. Her getting cancer and dying was tragic, but I doubt that it was a criminal act. The same goes for your friends who died of AIDS.
Your indifference to this poor cat’s suffering makes me wish your grandma had had a better grandson and that your friends had had a better friend. I would NOT want to be friends with you as you are right now.
Cats can still feel pain, same as you or me. And worse still, the cat doesn’t understand WHY it is feeling pain.
Chas E.-would you shut up about the artist bashing? NO ONE is using this to bash artists-on the contrary, we’re infuriated that anyone would attempt to pass this off as “art.”
For those of you who continue to trivialize this, coughmythoscough-go masturbate with a chainsaw. I’ll never forget the time I saw a cat get hit by a car on the way home from my aunts-I cried for a week.
People who pick on animals are especially sick because they take advantage of the “they’re just animals” etc etc. What the hell-it’s an innocent cat, who has done nothing wrong. Why torture it? Hell, the other day I was trimming some knots out of Misty and accidentally nicked her skin. I sobbed for 5 minutes…I still feel really guilty now that she has a scab. And it’s very small.
Think about it-these guys continued to hurt a creature that was probably crying out in pain. Ever hear a cat cry or squeal from its tail being stepped on?
We shouldn’t torture at all, but torture of the guilty is less repugnant, as there is at least some connection between the victim’s actions and the torture.
On jab’s note: I honestly don’t understand the desire to torture the admittedly disgusting offender in the same harsh eye-for-an-eye manner. The reason it’s outraged most of us is the cruelty involved, so we’re on the same level with that sensitivity. How does more cruelty, even in thought, solve the problem?
As the artist attempting to make a statement about animal cruelty is wrong by filming a senseless act of violence to make his point, wishing for his tortured demise is just as misguided.
I’d put it in the realm of civil disobedience. If you’re standing up for non-violent action for all creatures, don’t succumb to any sort of bloodlust. Torturing a cat hits me at a deep gut level; I’ve been blessed with having one sleep with me since I was three months old. Killing a cat is to me as offensive as killing a person. But I can’t understand wishing to kill in return. That’s just a perpetuation of suffering.
Sorry for chiming in late, and if someone has brought up this point before, excuse me (I didn’t bother to read all 3 pages of posts).
Let’s assume this isn’t a hoax (which it could be).
It’s a freakin’ cat! There are how many thousands of cats and dogs “put to sleep” every day! There are thousands of pigs, cows, deer, mice, bugs, etc. killed every day. Nature is not benign. Somewhere out there, as you read this, a mouse is being squeezed to death by a boa. It is taking it’s last breath in – wiggling it’s little tail – and poof! it’s dead. Now you probably didn’t care, because after all, it’s a slimy evil snake and a disease carrying rodent, right? Now this happens in nature all the time, but also gasp in zoos! Same torturous death, different animals, no one cares.
Hell, your cat even probably brutally kills rodents when you aren’t watching. They are carnivores! What do you think you are feeding them? Vegetables?
Let’s put things in perspective. One cat gets killed by an “artist” – at least 100 lions, cheetahs, leopards etc. will be skinned alive and brutally killed and eaten today on the African plain. You didn’t care. Stop whining about one little kitty.
Sorry, but you are not excused–please go back and read all three pages before posting redundancies which could and were addressed–sometimes passionately and with great eloquence in previous pages.
In the been there, done that catagory…there is sufficient evidence from reliable sources including the Toronto Police Service, Division 14, (posted in this thread and within the GQ thread on this criminal act) to lead most of us (with the exception of a few determined skeptics who will only believe it when they see the skinned, decapitated cat and video for themselves) to believe this is not likely a hoax. Or, if it is ILM will be recruiting these “artists” for their fakery abilities.
All the more reason to avoid unnecessarily inflicted pain, suffering and death on another one. (SIDEBAR: Police still haven’t determined the origin of the feline–it could be someone’s companion animal/pet, not an unadoptable stray that would’ve “been killed in a shelter anyway.”)
Further addressing your points, a lot of us do care about other animal deaths. True, cats are carnivores–one can even argue most humans are omnivores–however, they didn’t kill for sustenance, therefore, your argument is moot to the point.
I, personally, have stated in the part of the thread you didn’t bother to read that I believe that the lives of all sentient (to clarify this time to be defined as \Sen"ti*ent, n. “One who has the faculty of perception; Having sense perception; experiencing sensation or feeling” from Webster’s Revised and American Heritage dictionaries) beings deserve our protection–whether furry, fuzzy, cute, scaly, slimy, psychopathic or sociopathic even if it means separating them from the rest of their species (homosapians included) during their lives to preserve the lives of others.
I also believe that letting nature do what nature does is one thing and realize that death and killing are sometimes a part of that–if not as perpetrator than as victim. However, violently attacking another living creature when you possess the consciousness and conscientiousness to know that inflicting such torture and pain–that is neither necessary nor required to protect or preserve your own life–is wrong, is simply inappropriate and unacceptable behavior as defined by our societal norms, morales, ethics and laws. As such, it should not be tolerated and should be corrected by the authorities so powered to do so.
Elelle: Always a pleasure to read your passionate and compassionate perspective. Thank you for contributing.
What white horse did you ride in on? Hmm, that must be a bad analogy, because then you might be gasp using a horse.
The point of art is to challenge those “societal norms, morales, ethics and laws.” And “our societal norms, morales, ethics and laws” are simply a reflection of our “modern” culture; it doesn’t make it any more right or wrong than any other interpretation of it.
I’m a relativist, I know, but you can’t just go saying “well, most of us believe X, so X is right, and therefore !X (opposite of X) is wrong.” Millions of people think that Christ is savior. Millions of others think he was nothing special. Both think their right.
Besides, the art will probably get you more “save the animals” responses than anything else. You should be happy their was such a shocking martyr for your cause.
It looks like you are a true believer - you’ve probably never used a bug spray, hired an exterminator, eaten a meat product, worn leather accessories or shoes, eaten gelatin, or had anything to do with any animal product. Good for you.
For the rest of you, stop being hypocrites. What makes a horse, a cat, or a dog any more special than a snake, a hippo, or a cockroach? Oh yeah, those social norms. Well in other cultures, people eat all kinds of bugs for dinner. They are low in fat and high in protein; overall very healthy. Why don’t you eat them? Oh yeah, those social norms. This, IMHO, is what the artist was trying to elicit or provoke in your minds.
[flame shield up] [kevlar vest on]