There was no reason to assume such a misogynist slant, changing the sexes of the spouses doesn’t alter my points in the slightest. And I ruled out compromise only in that the guy is paralyzed and simply CAN’T offer more sex. But whatever. You go ahead and argue against whatever argument pops into your head.
So, no blood-guts-brains party?
Ummm … why don’t people read posts here? I’ve already said we’ve called it off. Did I not make it plain?
Eh. It’s a long thread. 
I’ve never been in a situation like yours (boring faithful straight long time married man) but I can imagine how difficult it is to call off a relationship that you feel is love. Knowing that it is the right thing to do doesn’t make it hurt less. Kudos.
Will this experience influence your future decisions for on-line behaviors? How much different, ethically, is this “on-line exploration of kinks” and virtual sexual intimacy from face to face (or whatever body parts get involved in what ever positions and with whatever accessories) contact? From your POV? From what you gather is her POV? And from what you imagine her husband’s POV is?
This no longer has anything to so with the thread, but it’s so good I feel I have to mention it: it occurs to me that I actually have been in the above hypothetical situation, almost exactly.
I wrote about this a few years ago, but I can’t seem to find the thread now. This could be a mini-novella (one of a series of crazy Casey stories), but I’ll try to give the short version here. During my Junior year at college, I got stuck with a new roomate, Casey, who moved into my room mid-term to flee from his current suitemates, who were abusing him (stealing his money, stealing his prozac, covering him in shaving cream as he slept, tossing his possessions out into the hall for fun, etc.). As it turned out, to get away from them he moved literally one door down down the hall, as they were in the next suite over – it didn’t do him all that much good, but whatever. The point is that he was the biggest, saddest abuse case I’ve ever seen. He had a pretty severe case of Tourette’s syndrome, as well as some very strange and intense issues with his mother and stepfather. People just walked all over him.
He spent a lot of time in online chat rooms, presumably because they were the only places where he had a chance of seeming somewhat normal. One day he asked if it was alright with me and our other two suitemates if a “friend” of his crashed in the suite’s lounge for a couple of days while she got a housing issue worked out. We assumed that this was an actual, college-age friend who would, in fact, be gone in a few days, so we said sure. It turned out that it was a local (Albany, NY) 30-ish woman he’d met online who had been kicked out of her place and was effectively homeless. And, oh, by the way, her thuggish boyfriend who had recently been released from prison would also be staying with us (we never got a straight answer about exactly what he was in jail for, but one thing Casey did let on was that it was something violent).
Like most people in Casey’s life, they terrorized the poor guy into giving them what they wanted – primarily rides in his car and “loans.” After about a week of their hanging around and making everyone nervous, we finally told Casey that they had to leave, which they technically did, but they still hovered around campus and made Casey’s life miserable. (In keeping with his previous pattern, he got rid of the couple by having them move into t ahotel across the street, which Casey paid for.)
One afternoon a couple of days after they left, I was watching TV in the suite when Casey burst through the front door, looking even more frazzled than usual. He stutter-stepped, darted his head around, made a series of his customary vocal tics . . . then went into our bedroom and hid in the closet. Literally. A few seconds later someone bangs on our door. It’s the thuggish, felonious boyfriend. He demands to see Casey. At this point, taking advantage of mywishy-washy moral relativism, I tell an obvious lie and say that Casey’s not here. He starts yelling and calling me all sorts of names (apparently he thought I was a homosexual), and actually tries to force his way into the suite. I eventually manage to close the door and lock it, and we called the cops.
Aftermath: The next day Casey tried to play it off to me like it was a big misunderstanding, and the couple continued to hover around him and pester him for rides. In fact, their demands that he drive them places became so insistent and frequent that one day Casey – who had far too much school-work to be spending all his time driving homeless sociopaths around town – simply loaned them his car for the day.
They promptly stole it. The story of how Casey handled the attempts at retrieving it is phenomenal, but also quite long. Skipping to the end, one or both of the thieves had to go to court for an unrelated reason, and, being the criminal masterminds that they were, arrived at that court date in the stolen car, knowing full well that there was a warrant out for their arrest. So Casey got the car back (after over a month), but apparently this couple had grown tired of living in the car at some point and instead had their dog live in the car. Among several other damages, the interior of the car was completely covered with dog shit, to the point that all but the driver’s seat had to be replaced entirely.
Good times. I’ve got lots of Casey stories.
You did, but you sounded like you were using falling suddenly, unexpectedly in love to excuse her behaviour and making it sound to me like it was a one time thing. It might be a one time thing for all we know. What I was trying to make clear, though, is that this wasn’t quite the sudden bolt from the blue you made it out to be. Both of you continued to pursue the relationship after the relationship became inappropriately strong.
Look, I know it’s human nature to idealize the one you love and I can understand you want to defend A from accusations that she’s a lying bitch or even suggestions that she may have behaved less than honorably. I’m a stranger on a message board 3,000 miles away who’s never met this woman who’s torn between two men she loves, and no, I don’t know any of her virtues and I assume she does have them. I just wanted to make sure you didn’t over-romanticize her situation and point out she’s not the tragic figure caught up in circumstances beyond her control you seemed to be trying to make her out to be.
I do appreciate you asking for advice and listening to it. My condolences on the heartbreak you’ll be going through.
Just a strange WTF moment on this. The web, as we know it, wasn’t really around 16 years go. The web 16 years ago was mostly a collection of unix servers chatting via UUCP and modem-based message boards. I find it unlikely that a cross- (or inter-) country relationship developed based on this limited technology.
Meet online 16 years ago? Maybe. Fall in love remotely having never met face-to-face? Less likely.
FWIW, Barrington, I think you made the right decision not to meet.
Wow, you ask for some guidance and dish out an STFU as a response… :dubious:
You have misunderstood the word “fantasy” being used in this context.
I’ve been the “B” you spoke about, and I learned a lot about what the three of you are going through…same set-up, but different reasons. A and Z were into emails, phone calls and then met-up on quite a few occasions that went on up to kissing and groping; close to sex…but I discovered it before it happened. Furious amounts of reading books and counseling have brought us to this conclusion…my wife was looking for emotional support and I wasn’t giving it (even though I thought I was)…so she looked for it elsewhere; actually she wasn’t looking for it…it “just happened” when Z met her one day and asked that ONE question when she was in tears…“What’s wrong?”. My wife spilled her guts out to Z, and he listened and sympathized…and that’s how the emotional affair began. It took a while for her to figure it out, but she did agree that Z was a fantasy (Mr. Perfect) to her because he met that one facet (emotional support in a time of crisis) of a relationship that I did not meet at that time. She saw Z as perfect friend, and Z was ok with that…for the time being. Months of emails and phone calls, and the occasional face-to-face at Starbucks, lead on to a “falling in love” stage for both her and Z…infatuation with some sexual tension thrown in for good measure. My wife became more aloof with me and I started smelling something burning on the stove. With a little of snooping, I found out how deep she was in it and then I confronted her with the discovery. I learned alot of things that night; how often they talked, emailed, met up, and other things that Z was pushing for (that she tried to deny, but couldn’t when faced with the facts)…sex. As time went on, she realized that he was trying to get her to have sex with him, but my wife started getting creeped-out over it, and then she began to see that he was not the ideal person that she thought he was. She fell in love with someone who she thought was someone she could confide with, not have a sexual affair with…that was not her intent. Things started cooling off, and she eventually communicated with him less and less until not at all.
Getting back to your above quote…Nobody here is arguing that there is no success in online dating and relationships between people (like the couple you used for anecdotal evidence), but when one or both are married and they pursue an online relationship, they become engaged in an emotional affair (like you and A); now there are MANY other factors at play that run counter to success. To you it may not be a fantasy because on your end you feel you have everything to gain and nothing to lose if you meet up, but to A, I’m pretty certain it is a fantasy to her which is not well-thought out. She likes to confide her secrets (re: kink) to you, a trusted friend who is always there (online) listening, understanding, non-judgmental, and supportive of her current marital crisis. You are an “escape” to/for her. The White Knight in shining armor, etc. You are the ideal to her at this point in time. You see the best in her and she sees the best in you…other things (emotional baggage, bad habits, etc.) are ignored or not perceived between the two of you now because the infatuation makes both of you blind to it. You may have a good thing going on now, but it could fall apart on you with a single visit, or it may still fall apart when B finds out how far things have gone. All three of you are variables in this equation. Do you really think that investing MORE time into this relationship will pay-off for you in the long run? Others have said it, and I will say it again…stop risking the long term pain and suffering for a short time gain in meeting some needs that another person (single and unattached) could easily fill. A and B have their issues that they should address themselves and they should not become your issues. But then again, the two of you are still blinded by each other’s “perfection”.
And as a side note: There is a lot of value (that you are missing online) that body language, tone, cadence and vocabulary used in a face to face conversation. You still might not know the real intentions of A, and it may be too late if she came to visit you.
Tasmania is a state, not a country.
I have absolutely no idea! I don’t have any plans to meet anyone else; likewise, this relationship wasn’t deliberately sought by either of us. In a sense, and in this particular context, it’s a bit like me falling in love with a woman I met in a bookshop, and you asking me how that will affect my future shopping.
An interesting question.
However, I wish I hadn’t mentioned the kinks - the only relevance of that side of it is that it was the reason for our meeting in the first place; we then discovered that we had a hell of a lot of other things in common, from which grew a close friendship and mutual love. The collective imaginations of the SMDB came up with live chickens and stuff, and the fact that we would have been meeting simply to have sex. This was never the case; initially, the idea as for a purely platonic meeting - we primarily wanted to see each other and talk and hug and kiss and so on.
But as for the ethics of online sex - that’s a big question, and I won’t pretend to answer it on behalf of anyone else. In Second Life, it is extremely common for married people to have online relationships, in many cases with their spouses’ consent. After all, it’s just pixels on the screen, etc, etc. I don’t see any particular definable dividing boundaries between, say, pornography and online sex, although they’re certainly very different indeed.
You might find it unlikely, but it certainly happened. Romance on BBS boards and so on was pretty common back then - I just caught the tail-end of that period.
Yes, I remembered after I posted - but thanks for the correction anyway. 
And thanks to Yeticus Rex for taking the time to describe his own experiences.
Anyway, this thread has grown enough, and got confused enough - I’m going to leave it at that, although intelligent PMs are welcome. Thanks to all who provided sensible responses based on the information given rather than imagination - to the rest of you, keep dreaming, guys! Those live chickens might even fly again!
I would think an obvious difference is that online sex in Second Life is in the context of forming “real” relationships. That doesn’t happen with porn, except maybe one-sided from the consumer’s end. Do you think you would have fallen in love with A if you had met in a chat room format that didn’t include sex?
Just out of curiosity, what does it mean to “have sex” in Second Life? Isn’t Second Life a video game? Do characters have cartoon sex? Do people actually believe they are having “relationships” with these video game characters? That’s heartbreaking.
So here we are on page 9 of this thread. OP, you still want additional feedback on the original question, or has this entire thing moved on?
In case you do, here is a response from someone who does not believe in marriage, does not do marriage, and sees no intrinsic reason to respect foreign institutions to which other folks declare their allegiance. Per se.
Speaking from personal experience, my gut has informed me that it is beneath my dignity to fool around with someone who has given someone else promises of exclusivity. If I did not know at all, that could be different (i.e., not my responsibility to know or to find out), and perhaps not as much an issue if I know but I do not personally know him to whom she has pledged exclusivity, but definitely if he is a person to whom I’ve been introduced or otherwise met, she has to tell him that exclusivity is off the table. He doesn’t have to agree, he just needs to be informed that that’s how it is.
This “Second Life” situation is sort of in a grey area insofar as you know he exists, you know something of him, but have presumably never communicated with him. Still, my gut says “Tell her she has to tell him first that exclusivity is not binding upon her”.
Meanwhile: I say all this as a person who doesn’t do marriage. If I were a person who figured on someday getting married, i.e., the institution as such was one I figured on opting for as soon as I found the right person, etc, well then I think I would want to harbor a bit more respect for the institution. In my case, that’s not applicable (I consider marriage damn silly and not just damn silly for me; no more my concern than if someone takes a vow of silence and self-mortification on Wednesdays), but if you plan on embracing the institution as the structure of some future romantic relationship in your own life, don’t you feel compelled to demonstrate a little bit more allegiance to the marriage that these other two people have entered into? I mean, if you’re so cynical about marriage that you’d have sex with a married person, why would you yourself ever marry? (Well, aside from deceptive cynical reasons). And if you’re not cynical about it, if you believe in the institution, seems to me like you should respect the exclusivity-promises these folks made to each other. I mean, I think such promises are damn silly and incompatible with human nature and don’t do anyone any good, but if those are not your sentiments, damnation dude, you can’t have it both ways, ya know?
Actually, Dio, I find it “heartbreaking” that you’ve made such a movement in this thread out of being asexual by request. It seems you’d cut off your wang in a heartbeat if it made your marriage a happier place. Kudos on the lack of self-attachment, but I won’t be following you.
Sorry. I suppose that last post was a little over the top for GD. You do give off a surprisingly prudish image at times though, Dio, lol.
I hope Barrington looks at my post 171 rather than my last 2.
Yes, certainly. If we’d met in a situation that was devoted to, say, motorcycle repairs, the end result would have been the same. The fact that neither of us is interested in motorcycle repairs is as irrelevant as the fact that we share the same sexual tastes. It says a lot about human nature that so many of the responses in this thread have focussed entirely on sex as a motivation rather than as a coincidence. To be honest, I’m very pissed off about that, and disappointed about that attitude - I thought that SMDB members generally would have had more intelligence. A lot of people have let themselves down in this regard. But your question is a good one, and deserves a good answer.
Put it another way. I assume (for the sake of argument) that you’ve fallen in love yourself. With that assumption, did the location and setting of your initial meeting have any bearing on your feelings as the relationship developed? It’s a rhetorical question, designed to deflect people’s assumptions that sex must always be the primary motivator.
AHunter3, yes, the OP question has been answered, as best it could be by the limitations of a message board format. I don’t intend to discuss our relationship any further - it’s too personal and intense, and it’s strictly between ourselves from now on. In a sense, I regret starting this thread; I was in a very confused situation, and just needed to be told the obvious, regardless of what action I took … and I’d hoped for impartial responses. Thanks to those who understood that.
From now on, I’m only going to respond to general questions about online relationships, and I’ll mention that I’m no newbie. I’ve been in several online relationships before, but nothing at all like this. Z and A are in love with one another, and this is not uncommon in online relationships - Second Life, email, IRC, AIM, YIM, BBS, whatever. Both Z and A know what it’s like to be in love with someone you’ve met physically. It’s the same, guys, even if you want to doubt it. Be careful out there!
Oh, and I’ll add one more thing before I stop talking about this particular relationship. This woman is absolutely fucking gorgeous, mentally, physically, everything. She’s my best friend, my soulmate, my all-consuming passion, and I’d rather suffer not being able to know her better than to have never known her at all.
For those who are still thinking in terms of live chickens shoved up arses, I’ll put it more simply - this woman is “HOT”! (I’ve put it in capitals and quotes and a word of three letters so you can read it more easily). Sorry to all those who can’t think without their genitals, but you might find out for yourselves on day - offline or online - that sex isn’t everything in a relationship, however hilarious you might find it, and how much you wish it to be so.
It’s a lot more than you suppose, Dio, and very difficult to describe without your trying it yourself. You see, the woman I’m crazily in love with isn’t a “video game character” - she’s a real person. If there weren’t real people behind the Second Life characters - for example, if it were a single-player game - then yes, it would be pretty pointless.
Most of it’s done in words and voice anyway; the animations of Second Life just make it easier to become close to one another. No, it’s not a substitute for meeting someone face-to-face. But yes, it’s quite easy to become extremely involved with someone, at a very deep and true level, and Z and A are by now means groundbreakers in this particular field.
Barrington,
I am confused.
You say that it is immaterial that the reason for her meeting you was exploration of a sexual nature in a virtual world and that love and sex (in this case not in that order) in a virtual environment are not much different than love and sex in the real world. And then you also say that it was immaterial that she met you to explore virtual sex outside of marriage, that it is no different than having met in a bookstore. That doesn’t make sense to me. The sexual motivation is not merely “coincidence”; it bespeaks to her midset. This is more akin to having met at an anonymous sex club and having fell in love than a bookstore.
Obviously these virtual environments are not “just pixels”, even if some spouses are okay with it for that reason. Some spouses are also okay with swinging. Or think they are until emotional inimacy pops into it too.
“Be careful out there” indeed.
If you want to view it as a primarily sexual relationship, go ahead. You’d be wrong, of course, as I’ve said, but it might make you happier to think of it that way.
There must be someone here who actually believes me when I say that the relationship is based fundamentally on mutual love and strong friendship, with the sexual part as a normal adjunct. Or does everybody else see the words “sex” and “kinky” and leap to immediate conclusions?
Of course we see it as a sexual relationship, because love and strong friendship are not very strongly related to the question or situation posed here. Being mutually in love with another man’s wife is problematic, but is something which each of you can work through at your own separate paces, or, at worst, poses the separate question “should she divorce him and marry me”, which is not even your decision to make as the second man. And of course having a strong friendship with another man’s wife isn’t of itself a problem at all.
When you ask about the morals of sleeping with another man’s wife, you’re talking about a sexual relationship. That’s all there is to it.
From the OP:
It looks as if sex is what initially brought you two together. I know, it’s more than that, it’s deeper than that…but it started with virtual sex. It started because of virtual sex. You said other posters are wrong to focus on motivation instead of coincidence, but it sounds as if, without that motivation, you two would never have found each other.
Is she the only person you met on Second Life and had virtual sex with? Is that what you’re getting at – that out of however many pixels on a screen you got down with, she’s the one with whom you developed a friendship? If so, I still don’t see that as validation. You said that she went on SL looking to indulge her kink. That’s what I call “primarily sexual.”