I find the Jewish Exodus to be a fascinating story. So…if God sends Moses to impress the Pharoah with magic, how in the world were the court magicians ALSO able to turn canes into live snakes? Any ideas? FYI—I asked the nun in 7th grade how that was done, and she said “Well, when you sell your soul, you can do anything.” The issue of selling one’s soul to Satan is another topic for another day if someone wishes to pick up on it, I however do NOT see the ancient Egyptians even believing in Satan to actually sell their souls to him. So, does anybody have any thoughts on how the ancient Egyptian court magicians were able to accomplish this feat?
I don’t believe it is the case that the ancient Hebrew writers believed there were no other gods in existence who were capable of displays of power. It’s just that all of these other gods are lesser than Yahweh. One of the points of the narrative is to show increasingly powerful displays from Yahweh which eventually the Egyptian gods and their human priests are incapable of matching.
I think this is an important point that people miss. Even the 1st Commandment give to Moses implies the existence of other gods. They just can’t be “before Me”.
You answered your own question. The Bible clearly says they were magicians, so why is it surprising that they could perform magic?
You would get the same answer if your question was about any other novel involving magicians, like Harry Potter. The only difference is, for some reason, intelligent adults allow their childhood indoctrination to defeat their common sense, and they believe that the Bible is non-fiction.
Silly nun. In my school, a statement like that would have resulted in a flood of 7th grade souls on the market, depressing the price and creating instability in the market.
Yeah, but you’ll all regret it when the supermarket doors don’t open for you.
“Way to breathe, no breath.”
Wait, so the fucking old testament recognizes some legitimacy to the existance of other gods?
Why do you find that surprising? Have you actually read the books in question?
It recognizes that the ancient Hebrews believed there was some legitimacy to the existence of other gods, early in their theological history. It’s generally accepted that prior to the Babylonian Captivity, they were henotheists…generally, that they believed there were multiple gods, but theirs was the best. There are places in the Bible where the Israelites were worshipping other gods quite generally (especially in the prophetic books…the whole purpose of the prophets was to get the Israelites back on the right path, so if the general population was still faithful to YHWH they wouldn’t have been necessary).
Yahweh. Read all about it.
The singular existence of the Hebrew God appears to be a late development in Judaism. As far as I know, no-where in the OT itself does it expressly, unambiguously state that other gods don’t even exist - only that the Hebrew one is the greatest, idols have no power, and Hebrews are not to worship the others (although many Hebrew kings did just that for diplomatic reasons - a source of much anger by the writers of the OT).
In the case of the Pharoh’s priests and magicians, the point in every case was that the Hebrew God was more powerful. While it is not stated that the magicians made snakes by calling on their gods (in my translation it says they used “secret arts”), the implication is clear: other magic may exist, but the Hebrew god is more potent than whatever magic or miracles others can create.
The OT has several cases of magical contests between prophets and rival religious figures (one example is the contest between the priests of Baal, in the Jezebel incident). In all cases, of course, the prophets win.
The notion that the priests had sold their souls (presumably to Satan) is, obviously, an anachronism. The whole notion of an evil Satan as a sort of proto-god to whom one could sell one’s soul is not part of Judaism, and shows up nowhere in the OT.
It just seems to me that in modern Christianity it is God/Jesus/Holy Spirit and Satan and thats it.
I’ve also always heard that acts of magic like this were works of Satan and that any “good” act by the other gods were just acts of Yahweh. Obviously Christianity recognizes the other gods, but I’ve never heard them given any legitimacy.
That is certainly the case for modern Christianity. Also, modern Judaism does not I believe recognize that other gods actually exist.
Parts of the Bible, however, are very ancient and reflect a society and religion of the early Iron Age, if not earlier. Both Judaism and, of course, Christianity, have developed considerably since then - both have become “universal religions” in a way that the religion as depicted in the OT is not. Rather, that religion was the religion of the tribes (and, later, kingdoms) of the Hebrews. Their god was the local god of the Hebrews, and only later was he “universalized”.
[QUOTE=Exodus 7:11-12]
Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake.
[/QUOTE]
It’s not clear to me whether the Biblical account is supposed to mean that the Egyptian sorcerers used supernatural/occult powers, or trickery of the sort modern “magicians” use. A bit of googling turned up this site which suggests it is the latter, and which quotes a commentary that claims
I don’t know whether there’s any truth to that or not—it pings my BS meter. Anybody know the straight dope?
I’m gonna say if you’ve got a trick to turn something as limber as a snake into something stiff as a rod you probably should be using it on something other than snakes. You’ve got a gold mine there, if the contents of my junk mail folder are any indication.
It’s a mistake to think of God and Satan as equal adversaries or two sides to the same coin. Generally speaking, Christianity does not consider Satan in any way a god. Different Christian traditions have different specific teachings, but Satan is alway recognized as a created but fallen being, powerful and evil but not all-powerful and eternal like God is. Usually he’s considered to be basically a fallen angel.
As far as “other gods,” Christianity recognizes that there are other beings (both spiritual and material) that are worshiped or revered in a way only appropriate for Yahweh, but none of these other beings are really gods.
That link is to “Aplogetics Press,” which I wouldn’t think would be an unbiased source. Their motivation is to show how the story can be compatible with modern-day Christianity. So I’d need to see some pretty good reference material, because Christian apologetics is just full of hearsay being credulously reported.
It’s funny to me, that if turning a rod into a snake by non-supernatural means was a common trick of the day, that Moses would use that very thing to impress upon the Pharaoh how powerful Yahweh was. It would be like “Watch this, Pharaoh, you should be scared of our God - he is so powerful that he can allow me to pull a rabbit out of a hat! Ta-daaa! And now I can snatch a coin from behind your ear! You should fear his powers!”
From the story, what it sounds like is that God was setting the Egyptians up. He specifically told Aaron to do the “casting down a staff and making a serpent” trick, knowing the Egyptian priests could, and would, do the same. But the real “trick” was that Aaron’s serpent then ate all the others.
Sort of like I pull a rabbit out of my hat, ta-da! And then, when the audience says “how lame, anyone can do that”, the rabbit goes all vorpal bunny on them. 
Ignoring for a moment the literal truth of the story, it’s always seemed to me to convey a marvelous moral/political truth. The first appeal to the tyrant is simply the sense of justice and the notion that the downtrodden have some power (even as small as the magic trick of turning a stick into a snake.) As the tyrant resists, however, the power of the people (or, in this case, the Supporter of the people) grows to the point of resistence and death. An old Jewish legend says that Pharoah stands at the gates of hell, and when the souls of other tyrants are sent there, he says to them: “Why didn’t you learn from my example?”
Another point: the entire story of Moses vs Pharoah is not necessarily directed at the Egyptians. This is the story of the birth of Israel as a people, and the miracles (or magic tricks, if you prefer) are necessary to teach the Israelites who they are, where they come from, and that slavery is not inherent but is imposed by tyranny. Thus, the miracles start little, and expand to larger and more unsettling things.