More House Questions: Electrical & Heating

Well, we moved into our house yesterday (yay!), and encountered a few unexpected problems. I plan to call in professionals, but was hoping that any dopers out there might share their insight.

First, the heating problem:

The house, a 1950s ranch, has forced water baseboard heating. Before moving in, I had a new (gas fired) boiler installed, which seems to be running fine. The problem is that two or three of the baseboards are not getting hot, even when I turn the heat up. This seems to be a problem in the living room and one bedroom.

Second, the electrical problem:

The house still has the original 1950s panel, which the inspector told me provided adequate electrical service to the house. Nevertheless, it seems too easy to overload the electrical circuits. If you turn on too many lights, the circuit breaker goes, and I have to go and flip it back.

Any thoughts? As always, thanks in advance for your help.

The two things that come to mind here are air in the lines (which you can bleed) and/or clogged lines or heater (which is going to be problematic)

I have a similar problem, but my breakers do not trip. However, the lights will dim alarmingly sometimes. The first thing is - is it the same breaker every time, or will different ones trip? If it is the same one every time, it may need to be replaced (the breaker, that is). Lights alone just don’t draw all that much power - you would need 15-100 Watt bulbs on to tax a good 1500 W room circuit. From what I know, it is not impossible for a breaker to bad.

Also - “adequate” is not always really “safe” or “adequate”. If you intend to live in the house for a long time, you really should have a new breaker box installed, with new breakers and wiring to it. It will give you some peace of mind, and eliminate the tripping and dimming. While tripping may seem to be just an inconvenience, it does indicate that something is seriously wrong with the circuits.

Regarding the electrical problem, I can only offer a suggestion on something you might want to look at. Older boxes used screws to make the connection between the mains & each of the feeds out through the house. If you have a screw loose (tee-hee), this will create a point of high resistance and cause lights to dim. The effect may be even more dramatic when current-hungry devices switch themselves on. In one case I felt the breaker itself get very warm, not because of high current but just because it was so close to the poor contact in the box. The I²R losses generated a lot of heat which made everything within a few cm equally hot.

Check the box for loose connections, and tighten with a(n insulated) screwdriver. Contacts may also be loose in hidden junction boxes and outles around the house (anywhere wires terminate).

I haven’t heard of baseboard heating before, my guess is that its one of those American terms which we Brits call by another name.

Anyway, I guess they are something like radiators, or at least there is a water distribution system around the house.

Two things spring to mind, one is airlocks, there will be some sort of vent plug in each of the heaters at the top, bleeding the air off may solve your problems.

The next is, how old is the pipework ?It might be that they are blocked by a long accumulation of debris, if you open the vent plug you should get a flow of water out, and at a reasonable pressure.The pipe that will be blocked is nearly alway one that runs parallel to the floor.

If these heaters have individual thermosat valves, these might have seized,and they always seize up closed.

There is another possibility but it would depend on the way the system is connected.

On each heater there is usually an inlet valve and an outlet valve, the inlet one should be fully open but the outlet one has to be set carefully.
If all the outlet valves are fully open then the heaters that present the lowest resistance to fluid flow get hot, and the ones that show the greatest restriction stay cold.

It this is the case then you need to balance your system, first go to any hot heater, and place a thermometer against the inlet, check the temperature and compare this with the outlet temerature, there should be a differance of at least 5[sup]o[/sup]C, but you may need to check manufacturers recommendations.

If the differance is smaller than this it means that the fluid is passing throught the heater too quickly, so you close the outlet valve a half turn, wait and measure again.
Eventually you will get the correct temperature differencial between inlet and outlet, then you move on to the next heater and do the same.

You have to go around every heater but the problem is that a change on one heater affects the system as a whole, which means you need to go round several times.

As a quick check to see if your system is unbalanced do this at the boiler unit first, and if the temperature differance is too small you will then have to go round the heaters.
This information should be there in the boiler handbook if you have it.

As for the electrics, look at the rating stamped or printed on the front of it, it will read something like 10A.
Next go around the house and check how many lghts you have and what power they are, this will be in Watts.
Add up all the light powers and then divide this number by your lighting supply voltage, if it comes close to or exceeds the value of your circuit breaker you may need to install one with a higher rating.
If the circuit breaker is old it may well have been tripped so many times that it operates at too low a current, so it may just be a matter of getting a new one.

IMPORTANT, do not fit a higher rated circuit breaker if you do not know the current rating of your house wiring.
If you are not an electrician then you should call one in.

Look here for some possible anwers to your heating probs

http://www.handymanwire.com/questions/heatingq.html

and here for electrical probs,

http://www.handymanwire.com/electrical.html

Thanks for the tips everyone.

casdave: Forced water baseboard heating is a system where hot water is pumped through a long, narrow radiator that runs the length of the floor.

Based on your comments and on logic, I agree that water isn’t circulating properly through the affected baseboards. It’s a little annoying to me because I would have thought that when the plumber replaced the boiler, he would have checked to make sure that the water was circulating properly. (He drained and refilled the system . . . )

As far as the electrical goes, it was more than one breaker. Is it possible that it’s because the house was empty for a while? I can’t imagine that the last occupants would have put up with this . . . .

That makes sense, and I do plan to have an electrician in. How can I figure out the rating of the wiring so that I can make sure the electrician did his job properly?

Thanks again.

Wire capacity is generally determined by size (gauge), length, material, and type (single wire, two wire, three wire).

For example, 12 gauge copper in two or three wire configuration (this is your classic Romex 12-2, or 12-2 with ground) is rated for 25 amps for normal length runs (approx 30 to 50 feet), and so are usually used with 20 amp circuit breakers. So there are many factors to consider. Generally speaking, however, home wiring for lighting and standard appliances is done using 12 gauge copper and 20 amp breakers. High current appliances such as electric ovens or stovetops, clothes dryers, and water heaters all require heavier wire and breakers, such as 10 or even 8 gauge, and 30 to 50 amp breakers.

Your local home improvement center will likely have information regarding wire and circuit breaker sizes, and electrical codes for your area.

Ugly

On a related question: Since the price difference is so laughably small between 12 and 10 or 8-gauge wire, why wouldn’t one just go for the 8-gauge? I am looking at another project now that I have put my toilet in - that is, running a high-amp 110 outlet to the garage (in place of an existing normal-amp one). Now, assuming that the breaker box is OK with it, and I have a 20-amp breaker, and a high-amp outlet, the sites I have read say I need 12-gauge minimum wire size. Is there any reason I shouldn’t get 8-gauge, and benefit from the lower resistance?

Thanks - is there any way, as a layman, that I can eyeball the wire and determine the size, length, material and type?

I’m sure that my electrician is perfectly competent, but the safety of my family is at stake, and I’d like to make sure that there is no mismatch between whatever breaker he installs and the wire.

By inspection of the insulator you can often tell the gauge of the wire. If not you can measure the conductor and get a rough estimate.

Newer wire is usually marked, in fact I haven’t seen any wire for years that isn’t marked every few inches, or maybe every couple of feet. If so, that’s the easiest way. Read all the markings on the wire until it starts to repeat. Somewhere in there will be the gauge, insulation type (normal, high temp, underground rated, etc.) and if it’s a multi-wire cable, the number of conductors. After reading some of the stuff on this thread, it may be obvious what the markings mean, but if not, post them here or take them to a electrical supply house, and someone there will be able to “decode” them for you.

If it’s not marked, or you can’t find a mark, erislover’s suggestion is a good one. Get a small piece and measure it. Again, your local home improvement center will likely have a wire gauge template you can use. Just bring in a piece of wire and see what the smallest hole it fits in is. That’s the size.

Ugly

Price and convenience are the major factors.

As far price goes, for a hundred feet of 12-2 with ground, there is some price difference, but not that much. If you don’t mind paying for it, what the hell.

Convenience may come into play in two ways: Flexibility of the wire, and the size of the binding posts or terminals you have to hook to.

For example, normal household outlets probably won’t accept an 8-gauge wire, or at least not easily. And if you have to mickey mouse the connection at the end, you may lose any advantage of low resistance by having a high resistance connection. This may mean an additional junction box or auxiliary panel to do the job right. Or it may not, if all you need is a couple of larger wire nuts.

Flexibility can be a big factor. 8-gauge is a PITA compared to 12 to pull, especially if you’re not running in conduit (and if you have to get larger conduit for the 8-gauge, that’s another extra expense).

But if your runs are open (or at least fairly accessible) and you can terminate the run properly, go for it. The larger size can’t hurt you, and may give some slight advantage, if only in the ability to run a larger load later, without having to pull new wire.

Ugly

If the distance to your garage is long (e.g. it’s a detached garage) you might possibly gain something by using a higher gauge wire. For shorter distances, even the 12 gauge is probably overspecified by a comfortable factor. You’ll find the heavier gauges of wire much harder to work with. Not only that, but the electrical code limits the number of wires entering a box partly by the gauge of the wire, so you might have to buy larger (non-standard) boxes and connectors.

As for the OP, I’m guessing that in the fifties, there were fewer rules about dedicated circuits for cooking areas and appliances. When the breaker goes, are you cooking, running the microwave, or doing laundry? Does the freezer go off? You may also just have too many circuits on one breaker, although it would take about fifteen 100 Watt light bulbs to blow a 15 Amp breaker. Not impossible, but not real likely.

In any of these cases, it’s a relatively simple matter to split the circuits into separate brancoh circuits provided
you have:
a) More slots in the circuit box.
b) You’re not exceeding the service limit on the house (older houses might be a little as 60A service, today with all our appliances and computers, 100 is a minimum and 200 is recommended for a larger house).
c. You have access to the basement or a crawlspace where all the circuits runs.

Unless you are pretty confident in your abilities, this is best left to a professional.

An update: I had the plumber come by this morning, and he seemed fairly confident that the cause of the problem was that there was still air in the system. He went around and bled the radiators (and showed me how to do it). One of them did start to warm up.

He said it would take a couple days for all the air to work itself out.

I think he felt a little guilty for not fixing the problem before – he fixed our toilet and didn’t ask for any compensation.

Later I will call the electrician.

Thanks again for all the help.