More on Memes

That’s not what I was getting at. What’s the mechanism for the ‘soul’ to influence actions? Not the mechanics of the interaction between the soul and the physical, but the mechanisms of the soul’s decision making?

And what I have kept on saying is that this does not indicate true randomness or free will. Just the appearance of it. Like the appearance of magic, to a naive kid.

But it does. See above statement. You haven’t reconciled omniscience and free will yet. What you’ve essentially established is that despite the presence of an omniscient being, you do not know how you’re going to decide. The lack of prediction does not establish ‘free will’. In fact, your position is tantamount to saying an omniscient being does not have free will and vice versa. I suppose the first part’s true. But the second isn’t.

Yes he does, just at a different point in time. Unless that was a threat:eek:. Yes I know that was not a threat. I’m just joking.
Let me expand on my question. The past by definiton has already happened. Your past version’s actions in it are all ready known by you. Our present is someone else’s past. There is a future version of you that know’s exactly what your going to do. Let me ask a different question. How about if the future version of you was brought from the future to the present? Would that mean you don’t have free will?

Or would it mean relative to your perspective you have free will and relative your future version’s perspective you don’t? The point I’m getting at is free will (if it exists) seems to be relative.
In the context of the post I am responding too. You can both be going 3 miles an hour and 52 miles an hour while changing seats on the bus (one relative to the bus, the other relative to ground of course). In the presence of an omniscient individual you both have and have not free will. It just depends on who’s perspective you look at it.

No. It also doesn’t mean that you do have free will.

Besides, if a “future you” is brought into your past, what about paradoxes of time travel? Doesn’t the “future you” interact with the “past you” and change the future leading upto the “future you” (unless you bring dimensions into the picture)?

There seems to be no coherent mapping from your analogy to the ‘free will’ scenario. The problem with omniscience (with regards to free will) is not that the knowledge exists, but that the concept of future knowledge can even exist.

But that point in time doesn’t exist.

No, it isn’t.

No, there isn’t. I will become someone who knows exactly what I did, within the constraints and limitations of memory, but there is no other version of me in existence.

This is why time travel is so paradoxical. It doesn’t seem to be able to work logically. You’d have to come up with diverging time lines to handle this situation. In the world As We Know It, it cannot happen.

Only if you assume that there is a future version of everyone. There isn’t. There’s just one of them.

You’re used to thinking, as am I, about future yous and past yous and casuality violation and all that jazz, since they’re common elements in science fiction. But they don’t exist, as far as we know. I eagerly await the first time traveller to prove me wrong.

SlowMindThinking hit the proverbial nail on the head with what I was getting at. He’s just a lot more eloquent in writing then I :slight_smile:

I do not know if “free will” exists nor do I know that it doesn’t exist. I just don’t think the existence of an all knowing entity mandates a lack of free will. In addition to my arguments above, I don’t see how we can debate the concept of an all knowing being without clearly defining it. The concept of an all knowing entity doesn’t sound reasonable from a scientific standpoint, unless we agree on what constraints there are on the being we cannot adequetly assume how it would interact with our “reality” (ignoring the question of what is reality). An all knowing entity doesn’t seem possible to me, but assuming it does exist how do we know it doesn’t have other “powers” that would affect this debate?

Do we even have a working definition of what free will is yet, regardless of whether it exists or not? Once again depending on how it is defined would greatly affect the debate.

How does desire play a role if there is no free will?

If there is no free will and all actions are controlled then what is thought?

Action. You are creating a dichotomy between thought and action, based on personal experiental categorization. In terms of materialism, they’re both the same. Thought is a physical event, just like “action”.

:o

It seems to me that free will shares some characteristics with pornography. I can’t define it, but I’ll know it when I see it.

I think the standard definition of a “will” (in this sense) is the power to choose. Free will is a power to choose that can not be coerced by a physical (earthly) power.

Well, that’s great, but what is a choice? To me, the power to choose seems to be the power to make suboptimal decisions based on imperfect information. E.g., should I take this job, or that job. Presumably one job will meet your life’s criteria better than another, but you can’t always know ahead of time. (“Hmm, go left, or right? I’ll take left. Oops, mountain lion and I’m wearing bunny ears…”)

I guess I would say that free will is the ability to determine the criteria by which you judge the outcome of the events in your life. I.e., I might decide that making the most money over the course of my working life is the criteria by which I judge my job. Or, I might decide that having the highest instanteous income, even if I am forfeiting future income, is my criteria. (So that I could enjoy some expensive hobby for the short period.) Or, I might decide that enjoying my job is more important, or helping people, or … To me, that is free will.

However, the materialist in my says that is all crap. I’m just a machine that gets positive feedback discussing nonexistent things. (But wait, if free will doesn’t exist, then it isn’t a material object … :stuck_out_tongue: )

Okay, so we’ve exhausted memes. What about youyous?

Oh dear.

Themthems could be explored.

[For whatever it’s worth, I thought some of you might enjoy seeing excerpts from my letter to Cecil:]

Dear Cecil:

As a proud member of The Teeming Millions, I would like to thank you for your wonderful books and many years of your enjoyable, enlightening columns. I recently learned for myself that few thrills in life compare to having Cecil simultaneously answer your question and make fun of you in his weekly column. My compliments to Mr. Signorino—the resemblance is amazing. :slight_smile:

Yes, Cartesian dualism became excessive, but that fact neither obliterates nor materializes the mind. I am in my third year of research on how the uncritical acceptance of such pseudo-scientific dogma as meme-ism constricts creativity in children. (With any luck, my book will be out early next year.) Anyway, I have some additional questions for you to consider.

Question Number 1: Would the World’s Smartest Human Being find “heavy sledding” in an intellectually honest “scientific” explanation of consciousness? Hold that thought.
Question(s) Number 2: Does a mental event capable of bringing about behavior really violate the law of energy conservation? Really? Should the World’s Smartest Human Being find it persuasive that a non-physical element of our real, knowable world might not comply with the laws of physics? Does the color purple violate the second law of thermodynamics? Does gravity itself have mass? Does inertia itself keep going unless acted upon by another force? Should we find it similarly remarkable that a physical element did not comply with the laws of, oh, say, morality or justice?
Question(s) Number 3: If Question(s) Number 2 is (are) answered affirmatively, would that disprove that mental events are capable of bringing about behavior? In other words, is a fact of experience “undone” by a theory that legislates against it? Really? Or would it be more accurate to say that the relationship between psychological events and physical events is only a metaphorical one?

The most intellectually honest articulation of the monist-materialist view is arguably Gilbert Ryle’s The Concept of Mind (1949), the book that recast Descartes’ “myth” as “the ghost in the machine.” The “ghost,” according to Ryle, is attributable to the common mistake of assuming that there are as many entities as we have words (for the entities)—he calls this a “category error.” (I use the term hypostatization, as in “Freud hypostatized the id.”) University of Newcastle theoretical physics professor Paul Davies explains the category error as follows: “the relationship between mind and body (brain) is similar to that between an ant colony and ants, or between the plot of a novel and the letters of the alphabet. Mind and body are not two components of a duality, but two entirely different concepts drawn from different levels in a hierarchy of description.”

So far, so good, I suppose. There’s just one problem: this particular “category error” commits its own “category error.” For example, Ryle asserts that dualism would require that the statements “Smith’s chess move is in the motor cortex” and “Smith’s chess move is the one he had in his mind” must be as different as “Smith arrived in a flood of tears” (or “you stomped off in a huff”) and “Smith arrived in a taxi” (or “you stomped off in a new pair of shoes”) (Concept of Mind, page 22). But they are different—right? This is an assertion that no self-respecting monist-materialist could accept. As Georgetown philosophy professor Daniel N. Robinson points out in An Intellectual History of Psychology (1995), “If all talk about mental states and brain states must forever be as different as talk about Smith’s tears and his means of transportation, then dualism—and not just linguistic dualism—can look forward to a long life.”

Enter J.J.C. Smart’s thesis Sensations and Brain Processes (1962) which showed (surprise!) “there are no philosophical arguments which compel us to be dualists.” Fair enough. In Smart’s judgment, “that everything should be explicable in terms of physics except the occurrence of sensations seems to me to be frankly unbelievable.” Allow me to translate: “Monist-materialism must be, therefore monist-materialism is.” Perfectly fair, but hardly scientific. Revealingly, Smart concludes that “there is no conceivable experiment which could decide between materialism and epiphenomenalism” (to that list, I would add transcendentalism, interactionism, and [wink-wink] string theory-ism). In other words, this is a philosophical matter, not a scientifically resolvable one. As Richard Feynman (you science types should recognize that name) wrote in The Character of Physical Law (1965), “One of the amazing characteristics of nature is the variety of interpretational schemes which is possible.”

I am also familiar with the fascinating experiments done by Dr. Libet—unfortunately, the observable timing of what we consider the “impulse to perform” still does not eliminate the possibility of mental events being capable of bringing about behavior. Scientifically speaking, it does not even directly address the matter.

The simple fact is we have minds, we are conscious, and we do reflect upon our own private experiences. These are the most common phenomena in human experience. Should I apologize because an argument is not refuted simply by telling me that I am wrong? Yet that is the only assertion upon which monist-materialism can be “based,” at least right now and for the foreseeable future.

Cecil, a great deal of recent philosophy and psychology is essentially a Ryle/Smart echo chamber. Books derived from this circular pseudo-scientific argument include Blackmore’s Meme Machine (…“We” watch with detachment while our robot selves rattle through the preordained humdrum of experience?.. Who the heck is “we”?) and Dennett’s Explaining Consciousness. Yes, I read it, and, like you, I had trouble getting through it—until I realized why: the book uses its assumptions in order to “prove” its conclusion (materialism is, therefore materialism is). Go ahead—take another look at your copy and you’ll see what I mean. It’s that way because it has to be that way—no one has yet “explained” consciousness scientifically. If someone did, that would be a bestseller now, wouldn’t it?

A neuron will never possess a noun. Sorry. A little more from Professor Robinson:
“It is not uncommon for the scientifically committed psychologist to express disbelief when scholars entertaining other perspectives insist that a scientific account of human action and human experience is not any nearer than it was in pre-Socratic times. There is, mixed with this disbelief, a conviction often stated that those who do not subscribe to the scientific accounts are clutching at the straws of metaphysical dualism and religious mysticism. It seems that this reaction to the scholar’s reservation is prompted by the fear that such a reservation must be based on a denial of the validity of science itself. To believe, for example, that studies of the behavior of nonhuman organisms is not likely to illuminate the factors responsible for human conduct is, we are to understand, a rejection of Darwinian theory. To question whether neurophysiological findings bear directly on the question of psychic causation is to question determinism. There is a danger in this perspective, and the danger is greater to science than it is to those perspectives that are assumed to be hostile to the scientific agenda. The danger is that of stagnation, for, if there is a sure road to intellectual atrophy, it is paved with the complacent certainty that one’s critics are deluded.”

As stated by University of Maryland physicist Robert Park in his review of John Horgan’s The End of Science, “Science has manned the battlements against postmodern heresy, only to discover postmodernism inside the wall.”

The “bottom line,” Cecil, is that, yes, you are entitled to believe, in spite of postmodern scientism and all other forms of fundamentalism. I select root beer over Coke, and my memes go pound sand. You nailed it in the final paragraph of your article: “We are entitled to believe that we are…self-aware creatures…who select among alternatives and who can reasonably be held to account for the consequences.” Exactly. But we should accept that this statement is not exactly a scientific (objectively testable) proposition. Like you said, sometimes, we just know.

Thank you again for your wonderful columns and books.

Respectfully yours,

Clark Coogan

P.S. Anyone interested in updates on my book project, just drop an e-mail to info@plainthinking.org. I don’t share addresses with anyone. Best Regards,

Do we have free will? Well, it depends on what your definition of free is.

Free to violate the laws of nature? Only at micromolecular levels. Otherwise, no dice. You jump out of a building, you fall and plummet to your death, unless you happen to be wearing a parachute or rocket pack.

Free to violate the laws of government? Sure, but be prepared to be placed under arrest and in prison.

Free to violate the laws of society? Go right ahead, if you’re willing to face ridicule, blacklisting, and even death.

Free to ruin your life? Sure, but I don’t think any recovering drug addict will tell you that their time while under the influence was particularly emancipating.

Freedom is not the same as anarchy.

I happen to think that we largely are slaves of biology, environment, experience, and habit. But I’m also one of those weirdos that believe in the existance of God and a soul, so… shrugs

Semantics.
It’s all about the above, really.
For “me”.
:dubious:

I gotta ask. How is it that we can violate physics at the atomic level but not at a higher level? Reality is usually more consistent than that.

I’m with you there. While I am, these days, convinced that there is nothing more to “reality” than rote physical processes, part of “me” still wishes there were more to life than that. But I suppose that is just a product of the area in the temporal lobe that tends to produce that “sense of the numinous” (cf. V.S. Ramachandran and S. Blakeslee, Phantoms of the Brain). . . .