against dualism

Dualism may sound like some irrelevant philosophical position, but most people (who grew up in the western world, at least) have a pretty intuitive concept of it. Basically, it is the idea that there are two “worlds” that exist in the universe, one physical, and the other one non-physical. The idea of this other world is where we get such concepts as the soul, free will, private phenomenon, consciousness, (absolute) morality, etc. There isn’t really a single name for this world, so I’m going to refer to it as the non-physical world to emphasize its mutual exclusivity from the physical world. (If they aren’t mutually exclusive what I have to say doesn’t apply; more on that later.)

The problem I see with this picture is how these two worlds interact. (Dualism assumes they do; if they didn’t, it would be indistinguishable from monism.) The physical world is presumably different than it would be if the non-physical world didn’t exist. Since the physical world includes everything that follows the laws of physics, this means that some physical entity is in a different state than it would have been had the non-physical world not existed. The only way for a physical entity to change its state from what it would have been to its present state is to interact with another physical entity; i.e. if something can change the state of a physical entity it must be physical itself. But this other entity we’re talking about is the non-physical world, which by definition isn’t physical! :eek:

To put this a little more concretely, suppose that scientists, in a previously undiscovered part of the brain, find a “black box” that is found to control consciousness and free will. There are three possibilities as to the status of this object: it is either non-physical, some combination of physical and non-physical and physical, or purely physical. We know it has to be at least part physical though, because the only way it would be able to control free will and consciousness is by communication to neurons through electrical signals, so we can eliminate the first option. If it were part physical and part non-physical, the second alternative, then all we would need to care about is the part of it that interacts with the physical world. We wouldn’t even be able to talk or think about the non-physical part, since talking and thinking are physical processes, so for all practical purposes we can disregard the non-physical part. That leaves us with the “black box” being either entirely physical, or else physically indistinguishable from being entirely physical, which is of course the same thing.

Let me give a couple of disclaimers about this line of argument. First of all, if the non-physical and the physical worlds don’t interact, or if information can only go from the physical world to the non-physical world but not the other way, this argument doesn’t apply. Of course since either way there is no possible difference in the physical world between the existence and non-existence of the non-physical world, we can just say it doesn’t exist to make things simpler. In addition, while I’ve worked this, and will continue to think about it, from the non-physical world to the physical, it also works the other way. I’ve been assuming that the physical world exists just because that’s the way I’m used to thinking about it, but it could be only the non-physical world that exists - as long as it isn’t dualism it doesn’t really matter.

Also, note that to be considered full-fledged dualism, something must be unexplainable in purely physical terms. Many more scientifically based philosophies explain concepts such as the soul and free will without going into dualism. What is important to realize is that our minds, always looking for patterns in things, invented those concepts, and while they are often convenient as shorthand for more complicated physical processes (many of which still don’t have scientific explanations), they didn’t exist before we put them there.

That might sound like a lot of exemptions, but there are many patterns of thought don’t fall into any of these categories. The one I’m thinking of specifically is this Judeo-Christian concept of absolute morality and good and evil. There is no way to represent these concepts in any kind of physical system. There are also of course lots of other branches of thought that involve dualism, including I think several other religions and in general anyone else who doesn’t think that all observable phenomenon have scientific explanations.

This line of argument has been pretty intuitively obvious to me for a long time, and a good portion of thinkers from the age of Enlightenment on have agreed with me, but I’m curious to hear from any dissenters.

(I hope this is clear enough for people to understand)

I think science, appropriately represented by “The Skeptical Inquirer” magazine (or whatever it’s name is) - can conclusively prove that every state of mind - from visions to IDEs to ‘intuition’ to a belief in a Supreme being - is perfectly able to be understood by the chemical workings of the various organelles of the brain. The amygdala - the frontal lobes - the hippocampus, etc.

In other words, the ‘sense’ that there is something beyond the material world is, itself, a function of the material world.

So - Science has clearly trumped dualism and religion and every other thing which may seem ‘ineffable’.

We all, from atoms to boulders, to seas, to planets to galaxies, are the same. Made of the same stuff; but in different form.

EXCEPT for a bunch of stuff we don’t understand on the quantum level…

Science will get back to you on that.

I know very little about this, so I did a google.

If I understand the quote correctly it means that if dualism can be convincingly maintained then computers cannot be made to duplicate the human mind. So, personally I’m rooting for dualism. :stuck_out_tongue:

I didn’t think science ever “conclusively proved” anything. I thought it collected the data and exhibited the implications. And I think the idea that describing the chemical workings of the brain is equivalent to “perfect understanding” is somewhat reductionist.

I’m not sure I understand what your OP is saying, David. It sounds to me like “if we can’t observe the mechanism of the non-physical acting on the physical, the non-physical does not exist” or else “the minute we can observe the mechanism of anything, it ceases to qualify as non-physical.” I’m not sure that’s what you mean, or if it is, why you think it’s so.

If some mystic reports an experience to a scientific observer and the observer says “This part of the brain was activated thusly at these points for this duration,” (the part that science is pretty good at) how does “Therefore the electro-chemical activity is the source of your experience” necessarily follow? Why can it not be “Your experience is the source of the electro-chemical activity”? Is there a way we could tell the difference when the physical is all we can observe?

If they want computers to duplicate the human mind, they will have to get them to act irrationally for inexplicable and unobservable motives and then have the computers create lame explanations to describe why they did so. :wink:

Original quote from ethicsrcritical:

I think that scientists have skipped a step. I am aware that they have located a place in the brain which can be stimulated in such a way as to create the experience of the non-physical or mystical or religious. Yet these scientists seem to have assumed that because these "unity’ experiences can be stimulated in the brain at the will of the scientist, they are actually totally physically based and illusory. Isn’t it possible that these brains are witnessing a reality that is every bit as reliable as witnessing the experiment itself? Why does the scientist rely of his hand-eye cooridination to be “real” but perceives the observations of the stimulated brain to be illusory?

Also, dear God of Frogs, is it possible that duality exists in the physical reality but not in the metaphysical? I know. It sounds like a paradox.

Hmm…that is a sentence that I never dreamed I would type in my lifetime.

Please understand, I am neither a scientist nor a metaphysicist. So it’s okay to talk down to me. :wink:

The problem with discussing specific scientific arguments for dualism though is that there are gaping holes in the scientific theories in which we can project whatever view we had to begin with. It’s not going to convince anyone who doesn’t already believe. That’s why I’m trying to approach this from a logical angle instead.

I would amend the first statement to “since there is no possible mechanism of the non-physical acting on the physical, we can’t observe any difference between the existence and non-existence of the non-physical, therefore we can assume that it doesn’t exist.” I would agree with the second statement, except to point out that we don’t need to observe a mechanism, just to know that it exists. As an example, suppose some psycic performs telekenesis (I think that’s the right tele-) and picks you up off the ground with the power of his mind. This would be no different than if I came over and picked you up with the power of my muscles. The act of picking you up is physical by nature, regardless of how it’s done.

But you’re already assuming the existence of an experience as something that exists outside of physicality. Since physical effects can only have physical causes, the existence of such a non-physical experience could have no physical effects, and therefore be indistinguishable from its non-existence. The reason science always takes the first option is that it has already defined an experience as a collection of physical phenomena, thus finding its way around this problem.

I’m not quite sure what you are saying. Does physical reality mean constisting of matter? I think as long as dualism doesn’t exist in the metaphysical reality though, the answer is yes.

My cat has two fluffy tails.

The problem with dualism is that the “other” world is an inexplicable dumping ground for the presently inexplicable.

—The problem with discussing specific scientific arguments for dualism though is that there are gaping holes in the scientific theories in which we can project whatever view we had to begin with.—

I agree: the trying to rule out the inexplicable with science is silly: just about ANY ad hoc defense can resuscitate the concept of the non-physical from ANY potential challenge. I don’t think it’s productive to try to cover gaping holes in present knowledge (people are employed to do that just fine, without worrying about the metaphysical, already): just point out the gaping lack of substance in the concepts of the non-physical.

IIRC, the idea of Dualism originated with Plato, with his essay on “A Fire in a Cave” (or something like that). Anyway, dualism is a silly notion because it posits that some forms of ideals and/or ideas can exist without humans.

C.S. Lewis attempted to use Dualism to establish Christianity. His attempt was outright bad and didn’t take much to refute.

At the crux of the issue is simply a case of idealism vs. materialism. I haven’t seen anybody who has managed to maintain a case of dualism “convincingly,” so I see no point of poking the carcass with sharp objects to see if it is dead.

Even if philosophically speaking dualism is dead though, practically speaking it is alive and well. I could peruse through recent philosophy and religion threads and pick out a decent sized minority of posters who are using dualistic assumptions - and not all of them strike me as people who would be careless about such things either. Somehow I expected someone would be coming to the defense of dualism by now (even though I’m not sure how they would do it)

As an aside, it seems to me that dualism in Christianity isn’t just limited to Lewis’s writings. After all, the whole concept of free will is a dualistic concept, and it is a major backbone of the religion. Maybe posters who know more about different interpretations of the Bible than I do can fill me in: Is there anything left of Christianity when you get rid of free will (including the free will of God)?

I wouldn’t say freewll is a dualist concept, it can certainly stem from secular philosophies, or be part of the premeses.

Some Christians use dualism to defend Christianity is because it is so popular, at least for a while, so it got spreaded around. Maybe some even are using it without consciously knowing about it.

I’m not under the impression that dualism posits irrational positions as necessities. I don’t see how perception can even exist without some basic concept of dualism embedded into the structure of all of this. You’re talking about there, not there, hungry, stuffed / parched, quenched / left, right / black, white / homeostasis, sensation / in sensory range, out of sensory range… etc… Some of these are extremely critical to the existence we’ve got going on here. If you’re suggesting that dualism posits any state of absolute nothingness - I think that is a property of sensory acuity rather than this ineffable essence of being. What if mind and body run two different metabiloc systems in a symbiotic relationship? There need be no superstitious requirement to explain something like this.

To suggest that difference and motion exist; and that the quality of homeostasis (identity) and interference of that from an outside collision, or that change in the form of efficiency for consistency somehow concludes that dualism is not a fundamental quality of life, or that this suggests the existence of a God; is IMO absurd.

What quality gives you the perception of intentionally striving to live for a purpose? Think dualism here, the one abstraction that humans have that other animals don’t. C’mon you can do it.

I’m not aware of any form of logic that discards dualism; and I’m not sure you’d want to walk into a forensics investigative unit and teach them about the uselessness of dualism! It’s probably the most widely used psychological tool we have; especially in any realm of investigation - and using it to apprehend a sense of comprehensibility. I have trouble even comprehending such a thing as the dismissal of dualism.

-Justhink

Is the argument that you’re referring to something that goes a bit like this (heavily abbreviated)?

1)Materialism is incompatible with free will. In a materialistic universe, all actions (including the states of our brains, ie our thoughts) are completely determined by the preceding universe, or else random

  1. Logical thought requires free will to work - otherwise all our thoughts have only a cause-effect relationship with our preceding thoughts (which is quite a different thing form a logical relationship)

3)Therefore pure materialism is incompatible with the existance of logical thought. Any train of logic which claims to have proved pure materialism has undermined its own foundations by proving that “logical arguments” as such don’t exist.

I’ve never actually seen a refutation of that. Would you care to expand?

My own position re the OP would be much simpler: isn’t “the material universe” simply defined as “what science can measure”? And the OP seems to be saying “I know that nothing outside the material universe can exist because science can’t measure it”? Well of course it can’t measure it! That’s how you define “material” and “non-material” in the first place. I don’t see that as a proof of the non-existance of the non-measurable bit though.

Dualism is as dead as materialism. We all know there is no physical world.

I think your running into a belief that contradiction is itself the backbone of dualism. And then arguing that as such, dualism is not compatible with binary logic aka. true/false. Binary logic is itself the backbone of dualism, where contradictions are investigated so as to resolve their lack of catagorization within a logical framework. You seem to be arguing that no matter how contradictory something is about itself and in relation to our perception; that it still must exist as a non-contradiction.

i.e. If God states that he never kills people and then kills your best friend - that this concludes that God never kills people.

The sense of how contradiction is guaged is that it is used to declare falsity; in light of other evidence. Maybe God takes you to the fiery pits of hell and shows you your friend burning in eternal torturous agony, and says “See, I didn’t kill him, I just moved him around” Then one asks God whether it is possible to kill someone or if they all must exist eternally by necessity. He states that people must exist eternally by necessity and that he cannot actually vanquish a soul from existence itself, only place it in one of two spots. Now you have determined that the dualism of life and death itself has no meaning, it is false and deceptive. God ‘won’ the bet(that he told the truth), because the bet is irrelevant to the nature of reality as a whole. The bet was made under a monistic pretense; when one considers the entire system - niether true nor false; the action itself was irrelevant and deceptive on Gods’ part.

Dualisms are constantly discarded as being irrelevantly framed as we engage with our lives; swallowed up as confusions which were framed in a monistic sense. Monism, is the quality that is discarded by us as we interact with our formulations of action and purpose. It is discarded, precisely because it denies dualism and does not allow for an area of consistent accountability.

What’s the point of thinking about being hungry or full if we don’t need to eat in order to survive? Monisms collapse falsely held dualisms. Monisms also provide the validation to not engage with dualism on any level; even those considered necessary and true. If a person believes that there is no such thing as difference, then they do not do anything; to logically act in accordance with this belief. They may starve to death, end up in hell and still not do anything in hell (because that’s what they believe) even though everyone else is watching them writhe in agony and burn to a crisp over and over. The people engaged with life dualistically, utilize evidence as causing necessary states of the mind. If someone is burning in agony, and then takes the time to stop and tell eveybody that it’s ok because they actually don’t believe that difference exists; this person is considered delusional or not an actual person; maybe a robot of some sort that doesn’t comprehend the most basic symbols of life, and is programmed to only utter contradictions.

Some things cannot be reasoned with over a certain span of time, and that which can never be reasoned with is not considered a sensory being aware of itself.

That a being can be aware of itself in a deterministic universe, only seeks to illuminate the very difference necessary to allow the universe to exist at all. A being is not all things of existence (if ‘existence’ is used as a monad); a being is necessarily located; which requires a duality. Their location and perception is determined by their lack of sensory acuity in relation to the whole.
One understands that if there is actually a whole, which possesses no other quality except its monism; that we wouldn’t exist. Duality is posited as necessary for existence.

-Justhink

Aspidistra, keep in mind that I’m not arguing for materialism, but against dualism. When I am trying to disprove something, I can use the assumtions that the idea in question is based on - in this case, I can use the logic of dualism to disprove dualism. Of course if dualism and materialism are the only two options then by refuting dualism I have proved materialism, but that’s strictly incedental.

Again, I’m not trying to prove that the non-material can’t exist. I’m saying that it can’t interact at all with the material world at all, because if it did, then the interaction would be measureable. (I did go further in the OP, saying that if they don’t interact then the non-physical may be said not to exist from the perspective of the physical world, but that is still different from actually not existing)

Justhink, you are right that any alternative to dualism has some disturbing implications: the loss of distinction between “there, not there, hungry, stuffed / parched, quenched / left, right / black, white / homeostasis, sensation / in sensory range, out of sensory range… etc” along with self-awareness and logic, and whatever else. But a violation of the rules of logic is even worse, and if it can be proven that dualism does violate these laws, we are going to have to face these disturbing implications. (Keep in mind a direct violation of the rules of logic is seperate from getting rid of them altogether; it’s important not to get them confused. Since dualism assumes that the rules of logic are in effect, it can’t violate them.)

Tell me if this doesn’t adress what you were talking about; I’m not sure I understood everything you said.

I’ll keep it in mind. But they do, to me, seem like the only two alternatives. Either the material, measurable world is all that exists (materialism) or there is something else (dualism). So an objection to one is, validly, a point in favour of the other.

Then you must assume:

a)that these interactions are common enough that we would expect to find them where we choose to point our measuring instruments. I think you pretty much stipulated that in your OP and “dualism” as you have defined it probably requires this, so we’ll take that as agreed. However, there’s also…

b)that the non-material world is inert, much like (most of) the material world. That is, it has no choice but to react in a predetermined way when we attempt to measure it. It can’t, for instance, recognise the fact that we are running an experiment on it, and decide to bugger off down to the pub for half an hour until we stop

c)that we would recognise a consequence of the interaction if we saw it. This requires that the interactions with the non-material world are variable in some way. If they gave rise to static states we would never realise that this was a consequence of material/non-material interactions. For instance, the fact that the universe obeys regular rules at all (cause&effect, repeatablilty) Why does it do this? Nobody knows. It’s Just The Way It Is. If these ground rules of the universe were as a result of interactions with something else, how would we ever know it?

d) (a BIG one) that *the material world is in fact measurable * The Uncertainty Principle rather sticks the boot into this one. Events at a microscopic level are NOT measurable, because the measurement changes the event. So at the quantum level our thought processes could be interacting with the non-material world all the time and, again, we would never know.
Dualism would be intact with a negative answer to any of (b),© or (d). I suspect that in fact they’re all false.

I am not sure if this is it, however. . .

It is unclear what freewill here entails. Besides, being probabilistic is not the same as random.

Even if the world is deterministic, it does not follow that our thoughts “only” have a cause-effect relationship with previous thoughts. Given the large amounts of external input at all times, it is not at all clear if this can be established.

Agreed to what? You can measure non-measurable bits? Isn’t this some kind of contradiction?

That is assuming there is a non-material world. It is quite unclear if that is the case.

Again, this assumes there is some non-material world there. Quite loaded, wouldn’t you say?

I don’t know if you live in this universe, but in this universe the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle does not mean events on the quantum level cannot be measured. Otherwise it would have been called Unmeasurable Principle.

What it states is one cannot measure a pair of related attributes (the classic one being position and momentum) with arbitrary precision at the same time.

It would? That’s news to me.

“”""""""""“Justhink, you are right that any alternative to dualism has some disturbing implications”"""""""""

Not really, we just wouldn’t be here (that is the fundamental of logic anyhow). A monad is the same as nothing at all. People tend to frame nothingness as a state where nothing exists; some sort of emptyness that pervades everything with no distinction at all. This is a typical visualization of zero or nothing. What typically is not noticed is that this unified pervasiveness without any difference what-so-ever; is the monad. People are so used to visualizing, that they don’t notice in this instance that zero is acting the same as the number one.

Dualism itself is a bit of a misnomer itself, in that it provides a very basic foundation yet does not posit motion. One ‘object’ in motion without anything else is a contradiction. What does it mean when nothing at all is moving around? It doesn’t mean anything, at least that’s been the line of reasoning for some-odd thousand years. It might be helpful to remember that 1 & 2 were not considered numbers in the ancient systems. The first number was actually 3.

In terms of the platonic ‘shadows’ metaphor; it doesn’t describe a state of absolute nothingness behind the phenomenon - Rather it eludes to something which places the innitial phenomenon into monad catagorization; at which point a new dualism is integrated and the old monad is discarded. I tried to charachterize this by describing the hypothetical bet with God; where he says he doesn’t kill people. With more information, we realize that it is impossible for him to kill people, he can only move them. The entire innitial dualism collapses into meaninglessness as the monism is apprehended.

You suggest that the existence of an absolute monad would be disturbing; however logic posits that we wouldn’t even be here to be disturbed at all. It is beyond all comprehension that everything is exactly the same - that is the gold standard of reason.

-Justhink