More Shadowrun 4 crud

It’s not mine to release (I didn’t write most of it, though I developed the finalized structure/organization we offered to Fanpro) but I’ll ask. I do need to check my law, however, because I’m not certain how Fanpro might react. Probably the only real obstacle is that it was written on a very old word processing program (this w

The key things which FanPro tried (and failed) to address have nothing to do with tech. Instead, they wanted to reporganize the flow fo the game. Fine and dandy. But as I’ll say many times, they picked an awful, atrocious way of doing it.

The key problems with SR4 boil down to this:

  1. They didn’t consider the implications of anything they added.
  2. They genericized everything
  3. They cut out most of the highs and lows for characters, excpt for MCM (see below)
  4. They made a clear optimal path for anyone not wanting to be a Murderous Combat Machine. (and if you are a MCM, who cares what kind of character you get?)

But there were considerably better ways to do that. And in fact, I can now see many better ways to ignore deckers. Fundamentally, you don’t need them to do anything now. Despite protestations to the contrary, I see no reason you can’t spam out a hundred copies of polit decks. Sure, a decker could spoofe them - but they’d probably spoofe the decker better. And yes, the point made by Menoccio early holds. There’s no reason a corp cannot have a hundred, or a thousand, or even a hundred thousand of these things on standby. They’re cheap. It costs them almost nothing, since they don’t have to pay for the program but once. Neither do the characters.

Why? Copy protection and encryption are jokes in SR4. As a character, I can quite easily take a few days off and break the CP on all my hot programs. Pick up some cheap co pouters, and I’m done. And in fact, the game world explicitly says that almost no one pays for programs anymore because of people posting it to the net. As a decker character, I wouldn’t dare go anywhere without at least 6 computers backing me up. That would be a marginal sefety net, too.

Secondly, it makes my old character literally obsolete. Mine spent more on headware memory. Apparently, I can now store all my skillsofts there. (This point will come up again later.) And a much simpler way of doing the same thing would be to just use isolated Matrix setups. Much saner, much more secure, no ultra-impossible technology imvolved. All you do is make sure your building Matrix isn’t hooked up to the outer one except through a handful of extremely tight gates. Bam, decker has to go in, too. Once inside, he or she wants to find a secure spot or just jack in to a node near whatevere the team happens to come across.

You’re still not getting my point. I’m honestly uninterested in comparing characters. That’s not my point - instead, I have a problem with system which require characters to sacrifice character growth so they can have some money. WoD and Shadowrun 1, 2, and 3 got that: those things came out of another pool of points.

Secondly, this betrays your bias. Shadowrun has always had a problem with people who think of violence. But the real path to excelling is not to use violence, or if you must, to use overwhelming force without risk. That takes smarts, not balls aqnd gunfire. And SR makes that much harder by cutting out most of the stuff not associated with combat. SR4 makes that too easy, by encouraging dabblers. The reason I used the example of a Mystic Adept was because it makes it easy to use all those extremely cheap-force spells (at low Magic levels) that utterly destroy a game run by someone who doesn’t “get it.”

It’s things Fanpro never considered. And that’s the problem. This isn’t Shaowrun, and it’s only Shadowrun to a very small group: those who go for the smash-and-grab. They eviscerated the options for everyone else. I can’t have a bunch of contacts without paying a hideous price. I can’t be an awesome techies like I want. I can own a vast fleet of automobiles, but so can anyone else.

That would be half my point. Thank you for making it for me. They now share identical summoning rules, and the nature of spirits now makes the ones they do summon less distinct. There was no reason for this change. It was quite clear why different kinds of magicians had different spirits, and there were clear distinctions between them. No one I ever heard ever complained about it. A Beast Spirit ain’t that different from a Spirit of Man. They’re almost twins.

Moreover, the make-your-own tradition rules make it quite clear that the difference between them is almost null. Almost everyone is identical as a caster nowadays. Playing a Shaman should be wholly different from playing a Hermetic Mage, and they’re not now. Druids and Wu Jen and Aztec Priests once formed a big continuum of different styles. Now they all play pretty much the same. That bothers me. They shoudn’t, even if only because they didn’t used to; this was changed just because.

It would have fine to do this. IF (and only if) Fanpro has rebooted the line (which, it seems, is what they really wanted to do). But they didn’t, so they shouldn’t.

[quote]
Attribute boost:

[quote]

Actually, you are missing the point. Attribute Boost shoudl be used in a different manner. First, only buy one point only, but get a high magic score for other things. Your drain is negligable; in any fight you get 2-3 ability points more or less free. Then, you add whatever you want on top of that. (Cyberware not ideal, but whatever).

[quote]
Money:

Poor folks make around 2000¥ a month. They could buy a limo if they scraped by on 4000¥ for the year, not even enough to live like a squatter all year.

[quote]

You are not considering something important: they get a loan. Everyone does, poor and rich alike, and there’s no reason to think differently in Shadowrun. Why wouldn’t they do so? And I believe I said poor, not Low-lifestyle. Many people will earn certain amounts of money between Middle and Low, and they will be able to afford a lot more tech. Poor probably runs up to 3,000¥/month (I didn’t know we had the yen symbol on the board); they can easily afford a limo. And middle-class folks can afford a

Since I was originally quite excited to hear SR4, no. I am well and capable of examining my own opinions. The fact remains that I have played a much beter version of the game. It covers all the possible characters - and I do mean all of them. It lets you play almost anything you can imagine in the SR world.

I’m not impressed with kidchamelon’s dice pools because, if you wish to play that way, you can handily do the same thing without min-maxing, and in fact the system makes out-and-out min-maxing undesirable (added variety making countermeasures easier.

This system has something like ten times the number of metamagic abilities, options for all exotic species, balanced and playable within the rules (ever wanted to be a dragon?) and forms of magic wholly unknown to Shadowrun, with their own rules intergrated right into the game. It does this without hacking away at the original ruleset (which, to be honest, was a completely pointless change and added nothing.

I wanted to like SR4. It would have been pretty easy to make a good product, because SR has been playtested to hades and back over the years. Its flaws are not hard to deal with. I can rattle off a hundred ways to deal with each one, if anyone asked me. Heck, if Fanpro asks, I’ll do it for free (and much more politely, even). But I’m on a messageboard and I’m angry and I can say anything I please. Heck, we’d even give them our version of Shadowrun changed to the SR 4 system, even if we dislike it.

At one point I wanted to work for Fanpro. I knw how to write, and more importantly, I know how to think. Sad to say, but Fanpro is not on my list at all right now. I wouldn’t take a job if Fanpro offered, because their current work shows they’re not concerned with quality. They didn’t even catch basic logic errors, much less technology gaffs. But those things are importabnt, because Shadowrun is not Star Wars.

Star Wars is science Fantasy. Shadowrun is Science and Fantasy, side-by-side. The current version is a horrendous mishmash. Take the following example: the new trideo system. Used to be that Trid was a box setup. Find and dandy. The new one is open air and non-transparant. This means that in Shadowrun they’ve invented arbritrary light-deflecting forcefields. Heck, this is potentially much better than in Star Wars. With this kind of tech, you could theoretically build a planetary propulsion device! And there are many more applications. Impromptu lasers, force shields - the possibilities are endless, and should radically and completely alter the planet. People are going to be using Lightsabers in a few years, and lasers may completely replace guns. And we’re talking months, not years.

One last note: Skillwires.

Skillwires are disgustng now. Why go to college? Just get a few quick peices of cyberware and you are instantly beter at everything. It used to be that skillswires were hard to get at a good rating. Now, they cost so little that average sarari-man can easily afford them. And rationally they ought to be getting them. And with the non-existent copy-protection, they will all have the latest skillsofts. And they can easily store each and every one of them. Even if they can’t use them all at once, who cares? Ordinary people don’t need to use them all.

In short, anyone with any money at all can easily become better than any human will ever normally get at anything they want. Corps should be basically sticking these into everyone they can, since it’s actually much cheaper than bothering with training people. Don’t believe me? Go ask HR at a major corporation what training costs add up to over the years. This is immediate and more effective. Moreover, you can hire anyone. That promising hire not quite as good as you thought? Skillwires. Need some advanced electronics deisgners? Get some squatters and slap some skillwires into them. Bam. Done.

By the by, I checked. Magicians are not more visible on Astral Space unless they are actively doing something.

Oh, and one other thing: taking out the dice pols was a giant, big, fat, mistake. Reason being? Reason being that it removed all the tactical element from the game. Shadowrun (of any edition) is nt a war game. The closest it comes is deciding whether to go for cover (Runners usually shouldn’t, because they need to be aggressive and not get pinned down) and the dice pools. Do you fight conservatively? Aggressively? balance it? Keep something in reserve for a last-dicth dodge? Rolling flat dice pools isn’t nearly as fun. Sure, they sometimes got big. That was the whole point!

It’s not mine to release (since It’s not my property) but I’ll ask. I do need to check my law, however, because I’m not certain how Fanpro might react. Probably the only real obstacle is that it was written on a very old word processing program (hence it may take time to reformat).

Key points include the addition of numerous magical options, cyberware options (including things you never heard of), ways to play new races, a super-expanded character creation, many new edges and flaws, metamagic out the wazoo. The key thing to remember is that it was written by someone who knew how to GM for his own games, so it doesn’t address things he already could handle.

Hence, it doesn’t specifically address the decker issues that SR4 fixed. (Which it did; I’ll give it that much credit. I’m angry because it opened up so many other issues.) That’s handled through alternative means.

Some characters from our past with that game:

The Witch: A telekinetic/psychic with his own magic style, this character was quite powerful and immensely cunning. He survived… everything. Got into trouble when a dark spirit entered his subconscious and started taking over. Don’t worry, we fixed things. We entered his mental landscape (psychic, I told you) and started blowing up his instincts. Got that bastard right god, we did. :cool:

John Deere: A former terrorist for hire, who crashed his car and suffered mild amnesia from the brai trauma, John Deere (a la John Doe :wink: ) was the world’s best techie in the world. Briliiant and unstoppable in the Matrix, he mostly spent his time building increasingly insane devices for kicks. Almost died when the Japanese navy tried to nuke him, but he escaped and wound up with a Force 12 Weapon Focus in the bargain. (In fact, I got my screen name from him, as he was the *Smiling Bandit * from the old Shadowtech sourcebook.) Eventually retired with his Moon-spirit possessed android wife. Come to think of it, his history is much like a very weird anime cartoon. :smiley:

I know you get Reaction, but the shooter gets Agility + skill, and so twice as many dice on average (this analysis ignores pistol adepts, who can do even better). Edge is a push; the shooter can add it too. If you want to add Dodge to defense, and thus have a 50/50 chance of dodging your enemies’ attacks, you have to give up your action. Now your attacker has three more simples in which to shoot you before you get to go again. Adding in the first shot, the odds are 15/16 that the attacker will achieve more net hits at least once, and 11/16 that the attacker will achieve more net hits twice. This is only marginally better than the case in which the defender chooses not to dodge. Dodging also gives the attacker more tactical freedom.

(When SR4 came out, my fellow GM and I had to decide whether to make the switch. I’m drawing on the notes I made at the time, not the book itself. If some of what I’m bitching about was corrected in the second printing, apologies).

kidchameleon: Yeah, I left EXEX out on purpose. It’s probably the best ammo (stick-n-shock gives it a contest, since it adds shock penalties and hurts spirits), but it’s supposed to be so it gets a pass. The trolls tend to have shorter Stun tracks than Physical tracks, that’s all I meant by “having more to worry about”. They’re still scary, no question. And as for vision mods…even in total darkness, you roll 11 dice. That’s not to say that some night-vision contact lenses wouldn’t make you even more dangerous, but it’s not enough that you seriously risk failure, no? More seriously, taking cover is much less useful than it used to be; +4 TN is a great equalizer between security guards and street samurai, while -4 dice (if it’s even that many) hits the guards harder than it does the PCs. In other words, a number of penalties that were once progressive are now regressive.

I’m not trying to talk you out of playing a game you clearly enjoy, just supporting smiling bandit in his pit of a game I found disappointingly rushed.

On preview: Thanks, I look forward to hearing about it.

I thinkI wan’t clear about one of my objections to the game. It’s not that over-chromed street monsters can’t still dominate in combat. It’s that
(a) they give way too much to do it.
(b) it requires they ignore flexibility for killing power.

And I don’t want people like that on my team. I will not play in games with combat monsters like that any more. They add nothing. The properly prepared mind can succeed without that.

That was the reason why I think the mystic adept is to good. My mystic adept would never learna combat spell, and would be only mildly good in a fight. BUt he is monstrously flexible. It doesn’t matter if someone else can ill him, because no one will ever know. Mystic adepts have too much flexibility (I have learned the power of making your own low-force spells), because they give up very little (possibly nothing, push come to shove) for it.

Your killing machine adds nothing to my mystic adept. I don’t need you. I could use a decker, but now I can carry twenty pilot decks for the price of one. I still have uses for a caster to summon things, but it hardly matters which caster. With my mystic adept, I can walk right into anywhere I want with only the slightest prepwork.*

Had they simply changed the game system, fine. I wouldn’t have like it, but it would have been a decent book. But as Taran says, this was clearly shoved out the door (or the design phase) without considering the impact of its changes. The only way to make it playable (as even its fans here have clealy revealed) is to ignore many of the rules and world backgrounds.

And I’m not even bringing up many of the previous crappy storylines which SR4 made worse. Deus (Gah :rolleyes: stupid.). Leonardo (Gah, horrible book, horrible story.)

*According to some thigns written in the book, almost everyone in the planet is under near perfect constant 24-hour surveillance. Yes, this makes no sense. If so, no character can sneak round anywhere. But SR4 is confused on their own point. Given that it claims tech can do things which are openly in violation of the laws of physics, and is constantly confused about the capabilities of its own gear, who knows?

From what I understand, SR4 was done to simplify the rules because that was the biggest problem with attacting new players. So the base rules now work for cyber/combat/driving/whatever.

This is just the base book. There are, at some point, going to be more books to expand on cyberware, gear, magic, etc. It’s not like 1st, 2nd or 3rd had Wu Jens, Blood Magic, Cyber Zombies or a lot of the other stuff. This is the base book.

I’m confused on why you think resources have really changed. In all editions of the game you had to choose between magic, money, skills and attributes. Sammis who wanted a lot of cyberware got the A priority and went to town but got jacked in the skill or attribute ratings.

As for attribute boost, if you’re spending lots of points on magic, you really spending a lot for it’s use. A mystic adept has to split his magic between the casting and adept sides. 40 points for a 2/2 magic ability is going to cost a chunk of your BPs. And you’re not going to get a high magic for using boost unless you have a magic of 1 for casting. Then your spells are going to be easy to shrug off.

I’m not sure you’re aware of how gaming companies operate with regards to employment, either. FanPro US has two employees. The rest of us are contracted out for each project. We don’t get salaries, we get paid per assignment. Well, theoretically. I’ve been paid for one of my…9 or so assignments, but that’s a different thread.

I’m not trying to say it’s the end all, be all. It’s got holes, big holes. But D&D 3.0 had some big holes and they’ve got a HELL of a lot more people to work on it and to playtest it. SR4 reset the power level for runners much lower, no doubt. But it was rather silly that runners were coming out of creation being elite runners. Despite my fun pistol skill, which I’ve used only twice as often as my architecture knowledge skill, nor have I yet to fire my Ares Alpha, ol’ *Paper Cut * is useful in far more things than just a firefight.

And I have to be thankful for our Technomancer. Unlike a bunch of programs she can react on the fly which has saved our ass plenty of times.

And I don’t take kindly to your trashing of a bunch of us who’ve never even worked on the game.

[QUOTE=kidchameleon]
From what I understand, SR4 was done to simplify the rules because that was the biggest problem with attacting new players. So the base rules now work for cyber/combat/driving/whatever.

I’m aware of how FanPro operates. Those two employees you mentioned better be doing a darned good job of editing unless they want to screw things up. They’re not. But moreover, having only two employees is pretty thin even for a gaming company. Heck, my gaming company has two employees.

I agree. This is not helping your case. However, if you want to go talk about how sucky 3.0 is, I can agree at length. It sucks on levels never before attempted.

Why? They were elite. That was part of the game. That was fine. I have no problem with moving to a lower power system. However, it should (a) allow characters who are more powerful, (b) retain its distinctiveness, and © not alter the game world beyond all recognition. SR4 fails on most levels, and even then only succeeds through arbitrary rules interventions.

*You complain about DnD v3. Problem is, * FanPro did exactly the same thing.

Look, with two metal tubes and a generator I make your Technomancer - and the Matrix - useless. I don’t want a character like that on a run. Deckers and Otaku are only useful if the guy on the other end of security is a blithering idiot. And if so, who cares how hot you are? There are always ways to open locked doors, screw with guards, and so on.

Besides, programs do what you tell them. As far as the system is concerned, I don’t have to bother doing anything myself: I just order the programs to. As long as I know what should be done, it gets done.

And I don’t take kindly to being sold bad products. I guess that makes us even.

Oh wait. You got paid and I lost money. I guess we’re not.

I don’t know who you are or what you do. But FanPro as a whole takes the credit and the debit for the games it makes. When FanPro makes a good game, I will praise it to heaven. It doesn’t have to be perfect. But it does have to show care and consideration. This is awful, and I will treat it as such. You want to make it better? give me a call, or find someone else to help. (My rates are very reasonable, but I am located some distance away and I’ll perfectly understand if you hate me. Your loss.) Otherwise, don’t complain when I blame the developer and publisher for the product it makes.

And even when I say “FanPro,” I’m not blaming Larry the accountant or Joe the manager who know nothing about games. FanPro is a black box to me. Stuff goes in and stuff comes out, but I have no idea what goes on inside. You want consideration? Then get your company to earn it. I don’t lie and don’t mislead. SR4 made too many mistakes, and I will not pretend it doesn’t to soothe your hurt feelings. I’ve written sucky things before, and I know it. I want people to criticize them.

Look, we’ve alrady established that you don’t even seem to know the rules. At least three times you’ve made claims which are patently untrue. And unlike the things I’m talking about, you’ve made mistakes which are openly and blatantly stated in the book.

You know, you despise the game fine. I’m done debating the game with you. I enjoy it, you don’t end of story.

No, you don’t. Don’t even pretend to.

I’m glad for you. However, neither of those employees is an editor. Only one works on Shadowrun. They are both line developers. Editing is done by editors that are hired on a contractual basis.

I’m not complaining about 3.0. Hell, few games would be so lucky to be as successful as 3.0 and 3.5 are. Sure, it isn’t universally popular but it’s growing at a very nice rate and is successful not only on an artistic level but more importantly a financial level.

Again, I have never worked on Shadowrun. I write for BattleTech. Go on and on about that all you want, but please don’t attribute the failures of SR4 to the folks at FanPro who don’t work on that line. It’s like blaming everyone in GE for making a bad Jet Engine.

Well check out BattleTech or Das Schwartz Auge/The Dark Eye.

Make up your mind.

:dubious:

Are you sure it just isn’t your poor ability to communicate what you are talking about? And for Pete’s sake, preview, your coding is attrocious.

No. If I despised the game I wouldn’t argue over it. I love Shadowrun. I’m saddened to see it done badly.

Yes, I do. It contracts out almost everything for SR. That those two guys aen’t being editors is a major problem, in my opinion.

That would be my point.

If a jet crashes because an engine blew up, people are not going to run around saying, “whomever worked on it at GE.” GE, as a whole, would be responsible, as the company that developed, contracted, assembled, and manufactured the engine.

There’s no distinction. I don’t know who you are, or anyone else at FanpRo. Nor do I need to. FanPro, as a company, created and sold a product FanPro is responsible for that product. Deal with it.

I’ve been thinking about looking at the latter. I’m not a fan of Battletech.

  1. You claim that poor people can’t own luxury autos, when the rules clearly show they can easily afford them,
  2. You have not acknowledged the kind of super-tech they put in
  3. You claim that Shaman have Mentor Spirits. This is factually incorrect. They must pay and gain no such inherent bonus.

And yes, my coding is atrocious. As is my typing. I’m well aware of both problems. And I should probably preview more.

I think you have this idea that I hate FanPro for some reason. I do not. But I object to FanPro selling bad stuff. And I really object to FanPro employees telling me not to blame them for making it, since they didn’t work on it. I’m not blaming you. I am blaming FanPro.

Now, I will be happy to send you our updated version of (as Taran put it) AltSR4. I will warn you it doesn’t contain rules changes from SR 1, 2, or 3 because we didn’t think it worth putting in our houserules and style of play. It’s mostly additions to the game system. I checked and my business partner would be happy to assist you.

Perhaps another time when we’re both feeling more civil we may continue this conversation without rancor. You seem to be getting very angry at me because I’m calling a spade a spade. Well, that’s free spech for you. But I’m fair. If I get a copy of The Black Eye and I like it, I’ll post that here too.

You really seem to be objecting to the fact that I’m pointing out that FanPro screwed the pooch on this one. I’m tough, but fair. In fact, I’m much harder on my own material than I could ever be on SR4. But I know quality when I see it, and I know bad material, too. SR4 made too many mistakes, and that should be acknowledged.

Ah. And there’s the problem. You’re starting from the assumption that Shadowrun 3rd Edition was mostly fine, but needed more rules for specific situations, correct?

This is directly in contradiction to FanPro’s goals. They were trying to appeal to folks like me, who liked the setting (mostly, it was still a bit stuck in the 1980’s), but who winced at the rules and thought that they were much too unwieldly. Less rules, more streamlined, and as long as general flavor is preserved, to hell with making it backwards compatable. And they succeeded in these goals. Very well. My group loves them. I’ve heard others say that they would never look at SR3 they hated the rules so much, but that they like SR4. Sales data for RPGs is notoriously hard to find, so we’ll never know if pleased newbies like me are more or less numerous than displeased grognards like you, but both groups exist.

Not neccessarily. While I don’t personally think it needed revision, there’s a big difference between revision/simplification and the jump from 3 to 4. Simplication is one thing. FanPro got the license so they could dismantle it.

A new edition should always expand the options presented to the players. Barring that, it should still meet new needs or refine old rules, creating a slightly better play experience for established customers and new ones.

Not making something backwards compatible is a slap in the face to those who loved the old system. Champions!/Hero system is a good example. of all kinds of improvements and problems for this. Most of the time, new editions were better. Good. Sometimes they just radically took out major elements and options, leaving characters high and dry. Bad. The latter shows disrespect for the audience.

More importantly, there was nothing wrong with the basic mechanic. Character creation is not any simpler than it was, and has fewer options and less strategy.

And in any event, even given the rules changes to this current “simpler” (square quotes intended) system, all of our stuff is perfectly applicable. Plus, with our material, all the changes to Matrix and Magic are wuite unneccessary.

Instead, they should have written two seperate (sort of) books. Shadowrun Basic would cover all the basics. It would be an easy primer for starting players, cheaper and more accessable. Shadowrun Classic would be for the old-timers or hard-core roleplayers, who really want lots of options. There’s really no conflict, and they would up making seperate editions anyway. It wouldn’t have even taken much work, since the Basic edition would simply be a cut-down version of Classic. Or they could even offer it as a free .pdf and spread it all over the net.

I agree that SR1/2/3 looked very intimidating at first. However, beneath the surface the game was surprisingly simple. I mastered it at age 12.
Anyway, I’m intending to write a brief sheet explaining the rules changes which we played with. They were quite improtant and subtle, and made gameplay far easier and much, much quicker. In fact, our rules changes were a very easy way of addressing almost everything that SR4 was intended to address.

In addition, much of our material was simply notes on how various groups used technology and so on. After all, the Decker doesn’t hold up the group if the whole mission is to get the Decker inside…

I was tired and cranky. Now I’m tired and apathetic. Switching careers is a bitch at times.

I disagree. Managers are not necessarily good editors and vice versa. You want managers at those spots who can manage projects.

Eh? What thread are you reading? I never made any of those claims(or non-claims). I tossed out some numbers about cars, make of that what you will. I never even used the term ‘Mentor Spirit’.

Okay, shoot it over when you get a chance.

I’m just getting confused. You started off at first suggesting everyone should get a point of magic because it was so cheap and when it was pointed out that it wasn’t in everyone’s interest to do so you switched courses and then talked about a mystic adept with a high magic rating which is a good chunk of build points. I’m really getting lost on a lot of your arguements, like those three things you attributed to me.

The problem here is that I have several related arguments.

  1. Tech is too cheap. A normal person can easily skimp a bit and still pay for a lot of high-end gear.
  2. It radically changes how the word works, yet there is no acknowledgement of this in-game.
  3. It drastically reduces the value of said gear, because it’s far easier to just hold back from danger or 'Run smartly and then buy it. In repvious editions, it made sense to spend more at the start, because it was a big help and would stay with you your whole career.
  4. Adept Powers are actually a positive good for any character who doesn’t want cyberware/bioware. You lose nothing by picking up that point of Magic, and in fact can gain quite a bit if you know what you’re doing.
  5. The Mystic Adept is disgustingly useful. It’s so powerful that I wouldn’t even let myself play one, simply because it’s too useful. I know most players probably can’t comprehend how, but I can turn that Mystic Adept into a God upon the earth in less than a month. Even if I didn’t do that, I can handily outdo all other character. I simply wouldn’t need a party, and would only let anyone else help just so I could be amused by it.

The current build I might try has 5 magic points - 1 for a ridiculously useful and cheap package of cyber, 3 for adept powers, and 1 for spellcasting. Yes, that’s all I need. Within a month I rule the planet for kicks, then retire our of boredom. I may not even bother to start with the cyberware, saving me money.

You openly claimed that normal people can’t afford all that tech. I believe I have proven my case that they can, and would be happy to continue to prove it. At length.

You still have not commented on the super tech, which I’m still wondering how you’ll defend. You seem to ignore it. However, checking the thread again, I see that you did not say seomthing incorrect about it and that I erroneously confused you with another poster. My apologies.

You claimed that Shaman get a Totem Spirit. Except that it now has no effect and there;s nothing which prevents you from just being a generic Shaman. If a totem spirit has any meaning, it must be a Mentor Spirit. Otherwise, it’s just hot air. (Not to imply that your are full of hot air; I mean the section of being a Shaman would become hot air).

I will be happy to send over the files as soon as we compile them. The onyl trouble we have now is that they were originally written in a Compressed COurier font (which is monospaced for everything). Since that is nigh-unavailable in an acceptable format it’s taking some time to knock out all the old codes, hard returns, etc. The first 4-5 pages are done.

As I said before, I’m not going to get into an SR3 vs. SR4 argument with you, because there’s no point. If you don’t like SR4, you don’t like it and that’s your right.

However, as at least an informal representative of FanPro, I must take exception with this comment, because it is not only not true, it’s highly insulting.

You don’t like the game, fine. Play SR3 and be happy, or make up your own version of SR4, play that, and be happy. Maybe you’ll enjoy some of the supplements FanPro publishes that aren’t system-dependent–I hope so.

But please don’t make insulting statements like the above and expect not to get called on them. FanPro is doing the same thing FASA did–trying to make the kind of game that will be enjoyed by the greatest number of people (and that means new players as well as the established fanbase). FASA closed in 2001, which was when FanPro picked up the license. SR4 wasn’t even seriously discussed (obviously I don’t know anything about casual discussions) until quite a bit after that. Say what you want about the game and your opinions of it, but don’t throw statements like that around when you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Smiling Bandit, this isn’t the first time you’ve ranted about a game system (and in this case I have the feeling you may be doing it pretty justifiably).

Not a big deal, and lots of people do so. However, your rants seem to usually involve you saying, basically, that you could do better.

Do you have anything published to prove this?

-Joe

Actually, that wasn’t an insult, nor was it intended to be insulting. FanPro took the license, dismantled it, and rebuilt it into something all its own. Much like WotC and DnDv3. In this case, I don’t like what they did with it either, but that’s a seperate issue.

Yes, but I’ve been leery about linking to it on the boards. I don’t think the mods would like it, but I’ll check with them. Aside from that, our ownly published work is an experimental text. We actually have three more solid books coming, if our publisher ever puts them through.

However, while I do believe I can do better, I’m certainly coming from an easier angle. I don’t have to build a line from the ground up, because one way or another the basics are already there. My bigger problem has been finding work, as the RPG market is glutted with products and writers nowadays. So as I just entered it and started building up, I haven’t had the kind of opportunities to build a wide portfolio yet. But I’m working on it. Our (we think) great Eclipse: D20 Point Buy has every D20 power imaginable (and some that aren’t). It should be published… someday.

What really gets my goat is the sheer number of elementary errors in these books. That’s the funny thing: yeah, I think I can do better. But I’m not claiming any special skill to experience except a willingness to discuss, experiment, and close analytical thinking. It’s not that I think I’m special - I’m just amazed by how badly supposedly top-flight groups are doing.

Our first published book is quite rough around edges, and I know it’s not top-quality. It has way too many spelling and grammer errors, and stylistic problems. At the same time, it packs a lot of information into the text. If you want to play the kind of game it’s designed for (High Fantasy with D20), it provides all the rules changes and alterations. The game would have been a lot better, but at the time we two guys in a basement using outdated software and old computers were just learning our craft. We learn quick, but there’s a huge learning curve to becoming an editor or graphic designer - especially when you’;re also the writer, making the deals, living out of your own pocket, etc.)

I’m also irritated by how hard many of the best developers have it. Steve Jackson Games isn’t a small fry, but their great games are overshadowed by mediocre games from others. Pinnacle isn’t uniformly great (*Brave New World * was a really schizophrenic game line, but amusing all the same), but they deserve a lot more than they get. It’s really depressing to see mediocre D20 products selling better than good ones, and the good-but-poorly-selling products selling better than great non-D20 products.

(Also, I’m a bastard sword.)

My business partner Paul got all up in arms over the Nanotech Trodes. Here are his condensed thoughts on the matter. While we don’t particularly expect authors and editors to automatically know this kind of stuff, they are paid to do a good job, and it takes a very short time to ask someone who does understand the issues involved. Shadowrun used to do that. (Eventually, they started confusing the Matrix and Astral Space, but that’s another matter and FanPro certainly didn’t help matters). This post also basically describes how we would take over the planet in the first session (go team!).
>>>>>>>Begin Paul Section<<<<<<<

My partner mentioned that he was having a debate on some Shadowrun 4'th Edition topics. Since he rarely has the patience to present a complete analysis I’ll toss in a quick summary of the thoughts that went through my head on looking at one or two items of equipment, starting with the Nanopaste Trodes.

The actual device consists of a collection of microscopic devices distributed through some sort of (hopefully) non-toxic gel with a thick, adhesive composition and optional coloring. The gel probably contains microscopic grains or threads of conductive material for reasons shown below. It presumably comes in some sort of container and is used by opening the container and applying some unspecified part of the contents to the outside of the user's skull. 

First, and most obviously, since their internal power supply is necessarily finite, the nanites in the unopened tube need to remain as powered-down as possible. Ergo something must activate them and bring them into full operation when they’re applied. Further, such activation must propagate through the gel to activate machines which were not exposed to the initial stimulus. Unfortunately, to avoid premature activation of the remaining material in source container, a catalytic chemical reaction or other exposure-based reaction (whether triggered by atmospheric exposure, skin contact, bioelectricity, or anything else except a specifically tailored secondary catalyst) can be ruled out. No secondary catalyst is listed. 
Our nanites thus must have a sufficiently sophisticated sensory system and computer system active to determine when they are applied to a creature and to come into full operation then. This requires a fairly sophisticated environmental-interpretation expert program, some sensors, and an internal power supply sufficient to maintain sensor and logic operation for the shelf-life of the cream - presumably some weeks at a minimum. 

Secondarily, in operation, the nanites set up a wireless network connection, translate that signal into a simsense signal, and get it into the brain. Simsense signal apparently involve some combination of ultrasound, electrical signals, and/or electromagnetic signals. Since external electrical signals will spread through the brain they cannot be limited to specific brain centers to impart a meaningful pattern of information - and implanted electrodes are not apparently involved. Ultrasound is definitely involved according to the information on Trodes on the same page, but will also tend to affect larger-than-desired areas. Evidently some combination of transmitted ultrasonic and electromagnetic frequencies can simulate neurons with high precision. Two or more intersecting tight beams are probably required; otherwise you will wind up stimulating a column of neurons rather than specific targets. Rapidly and automatically calibrating this to a specific brain's neural pattern is an astounding feat, but apparently it's common enough in Shadowrun. 
In any case, this requires that the nanites hook up into a large enough structure to function as an effective directional electromagnetic antenna - something that requires multiple lines of conductive material in a nonconductive medium (a conductive medium will function as a Faraday cage) with a length of a sizable fraction of the wavelength involved, the ability to move and/or manipulate materials (the two are difficult to distinguish at this scale), the ability to communicate with each other - probably through fine tendrils and electrical signals since a wireless connection between the nanites is insupportable due to the antenna problem and an optical system would have trouble with gel coloring agents. They also require another set of control and organizational programs to line up their signals with the proper brain centers, evaluate the resulting neural activity, and calibrate the signal. They must also be able to distinguish on the fly between the owner’s personal network and those around him or her (presumably using yet another expert program). A portion of the organizational program may be distributed to reduce the load, but they still need the capacity to assemble and run it from a randomly sized, selected, and distributed group of nanites. A similar set of requirements, along with the ability to move and produce mechanical effects, is required to produce directed ultrasound beams. 
Finally this once again ups their power storage requirements. Some power can be derived from the body they're on, but it's an extremely limited amount. The usable energy available from waste heat is strictly limited by thermodynamics. Bioelectrical energy may or may not be available; a troll's bony plating won't provide much if any usable power. The gel itself may provide some energy, but this can't be counted on since it's applied manually. 

This requires nanites with 1) a sufficient internal power supply to operate for some weeks, 2) environmental sensors, 3) sufficient memory and computing power to run multiple complex expert programs, 4) the ability to generate, direct, modulate, and interpret electrical signals, 5) the ability to remotely stimulate neurons, 6) the ability to detect and analyze brain activity, 7) the ability to move, organize themselves, and push materials around, 8) sufficient mechanical functions in a small group to generate ultrasound, and 9) the ability (as a group) to receive and transmit radio signals - actually a basic consequence of (4) and (7), 

Some of the most obvious applications involve nothing more than tweaking the program; setting them to move slightly beneath the skin and simply saturate the brains sensory centers with random stimuli will incapacitate the target until the nanites run down. Since they, unlike standard Simsense trodes, can redirect their transmissions, it is almost as simple to either defocus them - thus sparking random neural stimuli throughout the brain, inducing an artificial grand mal epileptic seizure of any desired length - or focus on other brain centers. This could be used to either simply disrupt the medulla oblongata and kill the victim or to hijack control of their body. 
On the helpful level, these nanites can replicate the functions of nerve cells; this can replace or enhance various brain functions, bridge gaps in the spinal cord, keep someone who’s been affected by some types of nerve gas alive long enough for the affected cells to resume transmitting signals, or (given an appropriate interpretation program) act as carriers to implant or extract memories. If magical essence limitations do not forbid it, they should be able to gradually replace brain cells and transfer the user’s/victim’s consciousness into a computer system.
Depending on their power supply and manipulative abilities they may also be able to replace muscle tissue or close and seal wounds. If not, a minor variant can; their basic functions require a more elaborate and versatile structure than most cells have anyway. This opens up the possibilities for “cyberlimbs” with freely reprogramable forms and high-order redundant computational abilities, replacing or augmenting malfunctioning internal organs, and splitting off chunks of material to create tiny, mobile robots. 
Given their self-organizing abilities if you can get someone to contact them, inhale some dust containing them, or otherwise contaminate their body with them they can act as a mobile, quasi-intelligent, bug, monitor, or control device either inside or outside of the victims body. 
For those who want a security system, simply dust an area with them and have them form a self-checking network that reports back via a direct connection. It’s not wireless and there’s no external access to hack unless you add new nanites to the network. If you do try to add new nanites and they don’t have the proper passcode and communications protocol on their first attempt to connect - which there’s no technological way of telling in advance - the alarm goes off anyway. Touching anything, making a noise or electromagnetic disturbance (such as by, say, having a heartbeat, breathing, or brain activity, carrying metal, or having an organic body mass) in the protected area will set off the alarm unless it fits a pre-authorized pattern - such as that of an authorized employee who has no new cyberware or implants, shows no signs of stress, and is carrying no unusual devices. Once something triggers the alarm, some of the nanites which have gotten onto the offender can simply either incapacitate them, kill them, extract information from their memories, or actively evade attempts to detect them while they wait to either act as a tracer or to ride with them and report back. So much for shadowrunners. 
In fact, in practical terms, these nanites make all electronic and many electrical and mechanical devices redundant. If they have chemical manipulation abilities or can be modified to have them, there isn’t much in the way of technology that they can’t replace.

They aren’t actually the most technically problematic single device in the book; that honor is probably reserved for the Holoprojector - a device which projects something which selectively refracts and redirects light at a distance, including altering its frequency to create colors and blocking the transmission of light through its area of effect to create a “quite realistic” image that you actually have to roll to tell from reality (ergo it’s not glowing or semitransparent). That won’t work with electromagnetic, strong nuclear, or weak nuclear effects. You might be able to hold an array of free electrons - effectively simulating the surface of an object - in a structured gravitational field, but it would require generating, stabilizing, and controlling, one micro-wormhole per electron required. It would probably be easier to just rebuild the universe so that the item was really there in the first place. 
You could probably - or at least plausibly - make it work using the Superforce, but if you can control the energy levels of the big bang what do you need with an image projector? You’re already God. 

In a game of technology and magic you want them to remain clearly distinct. That was always what gave Shadowrun it’s special flavor and made it something more than “just another game”. Technology operates in logically comprehensible ways according to the limitations of natural laws. It can’t magically bypass those laws by invoking words like “Nanite”, “Wireless”, “Holographic”, “Cyberware”, “Quantum”, “Hyperspace” and “Bioware” without becoming just another branch of magic. 
At least as importantly, Shadowrun often draws – or drew - players with technical backgrounds as well as the fantasy role-players, and they tend to see the implications of things. They expect to be able to plan on the basis of what is and isn’t possible and become rightfully upset when the game system ignores it or when the opposition fails to competently exploit their resources and technologies. It’s fun for awhile, but it amounts to an unearned - and ultimately unsatisfying - victory. 

Personally I expect the players to see the implications of any technologies or techniques I allow into the game, to apply them, and to develop their own ideas. Similarly, I expect anyone writing on a topic to have done a little basic research on it and to invest some thought in what they write. If you expect anyone to really explore your world and play a character with depth, the world needs depths of its own. You can have quick fun with any game system, but you want one that sustains a long and memorable campaign. 
That’s the only real problem with Shadowrun 4. I can tweak prices and damage codes. Typos are forgivable, as are math errors. It’s systematic and logical sloppiness that isn’t - and the rules are full of sloppiness in areas well beyond the technical. For example, “Combat Spells” were originally defined by the mechanism they used; mana channeled to directly damage a structure. Now you’ll find “Acid Stream” there - an elemental manipulation that has damaging side effects. If I made a near-identical spell with a description indicating that its primary use was to dissolve stone and leave behind nuggets of gold in mines would it be a manipulation spell? If I meant it to dissolve materials so that the color of the resulting fluid revealed their elemental composition would it be a divination spell? 
The original division was according to how a spell worked. That made logical sense. There are a lot of other systems of division that would have made sense. For example, it could have been divided by the intent of the caster. That makes perfect sense for magic, but it’s very awkward in game terms; spells would have changed category according to why they were being cast. 
Currently it’s a sloppy cross between how a spell works and how it’s usually employed. Since how it’s employed varies, but the category doesn’t, it really doesn’t work.

Heh, I logged on today debating whether I should bump a thread this acrimonious, and got a nice surprise. I have no comment on Paul’s dissection of the science behind nanopaste trodes (applying RL knowledge to SR physics often ends in tears, as I discovered when I took a close look at the encryption rules), but is there any word on Alt!SR4? We are rabid fanboys, and there is no such thing as an unacceptable format; we can even help with the reformatting, if you like.

Holy cheesy poofs, this isn’t correct. FanPro has had a lcense to produce Shadowrun for nigh on a decade. Most of that time, they produced SR in german, including some novels we english speakers never got to see (same thing with BattleTech). When WizKids bought FASA they got the rights to all the SR stuff that Microsoft/FASA Interactive didn’t own. WizKids, not being a RP game company, increased their licensing to FanPro, which established FanPro US to handle the english side of things (SR and BT, later tDE). Amazingly, FanPro hired a bunch of old FASA employees, including the two line developers. FanPro continued to produce material for SR3 up until System Shock, iirc. Market share not going up, needing a new boost FanPro and WizKids (owners of SR intellectual property) decided to rework the rules so they were simpler and clearer. The folks who’ve been working on SR4 are fanboys just as much as you are, smiling bandit, perhaps even moreso.

Here’s what I said:

Please point out where I said ‘normal people can’t afford all that tech’. Or anything close to that.

Ah, ya got me there. I looked at the wrong set of rules. So one for me, one for you and I don’t think you can find me saying anything about people not affording stuff, just that it’s tough to buy a car. I think I came out ahead by a nose. And if your GM is letting you take over the world in a month, he’s not playing Wizworms correctly. Lofwyr is da bomb.

smiling bandit

By posting your partner’s opinions you’ve once again gone ahead with another “That’s not how I would have done it, and my way is completely superior” post.

Really, it gets kind of tiresome unless you’re going to back it up, because, so far, you haven’t done anything that anyone else can’t. We can all tear apart others’ work and make vague claims about how our system could do everything else only better - and that it would also make you smarter and your teeth whiter.

You don’t have to be able to do better on your own - it isnt necessary to point out that you don’t like something - from what I’ve seen about the SR4 stuff I would absolutely despise it - but continually going on about how you could do better just gets tiresome.

-Joe

Thus far I haven’t got anything published which would stack up, although that’s more of an opportunity than anything else. It’s a tough industry to break into, and frankly there have been few really new games coming out. I’m certainly not foolish enough to make one in the near dead post-D20 market.

But in any case, my comments here are more to the effect of noting really boneheaded errors. Anyone ought to be able to avoid those with a little thought. As far as Shadowrun 4 is conscerned, I think most people could do better.

You’ll note, I’ve never posted anything like this for World of Darkness or Deadlands. Those systems have flaws (many of them) but all in all, the writers tried hard to make a solid, dependable system that plays well. I don’t think they entirely succeeded. But they avoided most major issues. SR4 stumbled stright into them without a second’s hesitation.

However, take heart. With any luck, you just see and original game come out from us in a year or so. And however, critical we are of others, we are even more critical of out own material. We’re positively mean about it. The slightest flaw is pointed out and paraded around out heads, in them, and out them. I can forget SR4’s flaws and walk away.

I know each and every flaw in my own material, and every time I look at the book I see it, see that terribly stain chewing up the page, making the whole thing worthless. I don’t have to care about other’s flaws. My own gnaw at me day in and out.