Mormonism response - biased and inadequate

What’s up with Mormonism? 05-Apr-2005 http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mmormon.html

Sorry to come into this so late and stir things up again – but I felt a point needed to made about this article that no one has seemed to notice. The bias comes up in a very subtle way - in the method used to present each side. Any information in favor of Mormonism is never given any evidence beyond “If you believe it, it’s so” – that’s it. Historical facts and reports of evidentiary research are only used to support the other side of the argument.

My other evidence - if not for bias then for inadequate research into such a complex problem - is that there are “Subject Matter Experts” that could have been consulted but were not. There are non-LDS historians that study Mormonism, such as Indiana University-Purdue University Professor Jan Shipps and University of Notre Dame Provost Nathan Hatch. They tend to look at the facts about the start of the church without believing it or being opposed to it – only as history. But there seems to be no attempt to get any opinions of unbiased observers.

In the words of Jan Shipps (Mormonism: The Story of a New Religious Tradition)
“… when identical accounts of the foundation events of Mormonism are set down within different contexts … the “facts” of LDS history do not necessarily speak for themselves. It is as important to remember that the very same descriptions of the very same events can take on radically different meanings when they are placed in different settings as it is to keep in mind that “inside” and “outside” perceptions of what was happening differed at practically every point in LDS history”.
Now I doubt that Rico is trying to be dishonest – It is a very hard thing to see the other side of an argument once you’ve convinced yourself otherwise – and the “Straight Dope” for this question can no more be answered by an article like this than could the “Straight Dope” of Jesus Christ’s resurrection be answered to the satisfaction of all Christians, Jews, and Muslims. I however am coming from the opposite side of the coin – I’m a former Catholic and then a former religious agnostic and skeptic; and now a returned Mormon Missionary who is still quite active and believes the traditional Mormon story.

The part that was not biased is Rico’s presentation of the LDS version – his presentation of it was brief yet covered the basics and was accurate – surprisingly a very difficult task for many people. From there he should have told the other side of the story about what many antagonistic to the Mormons thought/think about Joseph Smith being a liar and charlatan. THEN if he wanted to trot out facts he could have alternately described how each side interprets those facts and give a full account. But instead certain facts are displayed and the reader is only given one side of that story. This is like attending a trial but only being given the prosecutor’s side of it.

For Example – “There was no religious revival, as Smith claimed, in New York in 1820. There were revivals in 1816-1817 and again in 1823-1824, according to town records.” Bias can be seen in this statement alone – “town records” are not going to be able to prove that there were no revivals in the entire state of New York. Rico’s statement almost forces the obvious conclusion that Smith is a liar or is grossly incompetant. But it’s not true, and twists what Smith said. That statement is based on research that found that there were no revivals in 1820 in or very near Palmyra (the “town” mentioned above), which was the largest city around the township of Manchester were Joseph Smith lived, NOT all of New York State. When you look around within a normal day’s journey there were revivals in other smaller townships in the spring of 1820. But even so – Smith’s story doesn’t require formal revivals anyway. He said that “there was in the place where we lived an unusual excitement on the subject of religion.” So although you’re given a fact it is completely one sided.

For example – On the question of affidavits and “Smith was a notorious figure in town”. It’s true that there were 100’s of affidavits that said all sorts of things about the Smith’s and their bad behavior and superstitious nature – usually always describing them as ignorant and lazy and hundreds of other things. The truth is most reputable Non-LDS scholars (like Shipps and Hatch above) generally discount these affidavits as highly suspect, because for one they were collected expressly to be used as anti-Mormon propaganda and because further fact checking makes everything they said questionable. For example, it can be proven they were not ignorant and lazy from tax records, existing first person letters, and school records. Smith’s father taught school in Vermont, his brother was on the “school board” around that time. Tax records show how much land they cleared in a year and crops grown which are enough to prove they couldn’t have been lazy – so like a witness in court once they are found in one major lie - everything about their testimony becomes suspect. It is not just the LDS who discount them but again the general scholarly opinion of today. As for the $2.86 – it is unclear if he was convicted or had the charges dropped and if it was a fine or a court cost paid by someone other that Joseph Smith. This whole question is very much in dispute but presented as if there is only one possible conclusion.

For example, “several of the witnesses were eventually excommunicated from the new religion, and went on to join other religions”. Very true – but the spin is that this disproves what they said – instead this fact proves the truth of their testimonies. Did Rico fail to mention that even through the years of their estrangement from the Church – None of them ever denied their testimonies of the truth of the Book of Mormon – even though they often received a great deal of pressure from the non-believers they lived with. Imagine no longer under the thumb of Joseph Smith, some with a real hatred towards him; yet they still never denied that they had really seen an angel and had really hefted and turned the pages of the golden plates. Did he fail to mention that of the 3 witnesses who say they saw an angel and were all excommunicated at some point – 2 voluntarily came back and were rebaptized; and the 3rd made sure that that his testimony of the angel and the Book of Mormon was inscribed on his tombstone – That couldn’t be because he was afraid of the Mormons when he was dead, it was as he said because of his fear of God. Did Rico forget to mention that each of the 3 is recorded as giving a deathbed confession reconfirming their testimonies? No, but out of the dozens and dozens of statements where they try to tell people that they actually say an angel as well as they see a table or the sunlight around them Rico picks up an one or two statements that “seem to say” it was also a spiritual experience. You get none of this – all Rico does is hint that they didn’t really believe and denied their testimonies.

For example, “Several alternative theories about the origin of the Book of Mormon have been advanced. One is that Smith was inspired to write the work by an 1823 book called View Of The Hebrews by Ethan Smith, the pastor of Oliver Cowdery’s church.” Well that’s not a lie - there are many many theories by critics – yet none have been able to come up with a coherent alternative that brings even the critics to a consensus. Mormons read the same works and see generalizations with as many contradictions as similarities. BYU (an LDS University) republished ‘View Of The Hebrews’ because it was about to be lost to history and they wanted to make sure reasonable people could still read it and see how thin the similarities are. Jeff Lindsay (http://www.jefflindsay.com/bomsource.shtml ) has shown how you can make more and stronger similarities with Walt Whitman’s ‘Leaves of Grass’, written 25 years after the Book of Mormon. General parallels are not impressive to many.
For Example, “For the record, no archaeological evidence has been found anywhere in the Americas to support the existence of an ancient civilization such as that described in the Book of Mormon.” Now that’s no lie - but what a spin - While nothing has been found that directly ties in – mostly critics attack straw men, they object to early “folk ideas” of many Mormons who often thought the book was about all Native Americans everywhere over all of North and South America. Careful modern textual analysis indicates it probably covered a small area of a subculture within a larger civilization – Which becomes much harder to find direct evidence – and research of Meso-American subcultures is still in its infancy. Yet it is always surprising to me that the most strident anti-Mormons always bring this up - yet just handwave the evidence from the Old World. The Book of Mormon gives directions to two locations – a continually flowing river at the edge of the Red Sea in Saudia Arabia; and a large ‘bountiful’ area on the eastern shores of Saudia or Yeman. For 150 years this has been ridiculed by experts; they said that these areas had never been found and even that they could not exist. But they’ve both been found since 1980, and in the right place, and match all the 20 or so criteria that the Book of Mormon uses to describe them. To improve the “lucky guess” in the book - altars have been found naming a location (Nahmon) right along the route between the other two (correctly located in space and time (600 B.C.) – just as the Book of Mormon predicts. There are several internal evidences of the Book of Mormon that indicate that it would be impossible for any man in 1830 to write on his own, such as previously unknown forms of Hebrew and Semitic poetry. Even the idea of ancients writing on metal plates was laughed at in Joseph’s day – there was zero evidence for it - but only fools laugh today because other examples have been found. No one has been able to come up with a half-way decent alternative theory that can account for all this and much more that the Book of Mormon contains.

I respect the fact that all issues are debatable and if someone doesn’t believe one side or the other that is there prerogative. I have only brought up one side, but it is the side of a reason-filled belief in Mormonism that was left totally unmentioned by Rico. But by bringing up a one sided interpretation of some facts while not even hinting that there is another side to the story – is certainly biased and unfair. Rico’s response does not come close to being “The Straight Dope.”

Just for the record, when I read the article I thought that it was biased with slight favor towards the LDS church. So maybe it was more fair and balanced than you think.

Chemish, as a guest, I’m wondering if you are all that familiar with the restrictions the members of the board who write Staff Reports have to stick to. The most obvious one that sticks out as a sore thumb here is Rico had about 1/4 or 1/5 of the space you have used to criticize his report.

Presenting all the information could easily fill a book but that would not change the fact that it boils down to faith.

If you honestly think you can do justice and provide what you believe to be the straight dope to the LDS questions that come in, then you might want to consider becoming a member of the board and offer your services. That question waited for 2 years because no one else was willing to attempt to address it in the limited space.

I’d also like to suggest, Chemish, that you take a look at some of the other Staff Reports dealing historical events of other religions (like Judaism and Christianity.) They all take pretty much the same approach: they present the religion’s take on some event, and then they present any archaeological/historical evidence that may support or not support the religious perspective. They do NOT do what you suggest, present the Christian arguments and then the anti-Christian arguments.

We do not present the side of the anti-Christians, the anti-LDS, the anti-semites, the anti-Muslims, or whatever, because those views are usually so biased from the start as to be not worth consideration. We also (usually) do not present the side of the numerous sub-cultures within the religion, because it’s just too much.

Examples of similar Staff Reports in the past include Who wrote the Bible? (Part 1), and also such gems as What did the census at the time of the birth of Christ accomplish? or even Who killed Jesus?. (I blush to say that I wrote all three of these, but what the hell, that’s how I know they present only the two sides, with a couple of minor points possibly in exception. There are some questions we handle that are purely textual analysis, where we don’t present the view of science or archaeology. We do that for some non-religious stories, as well.

The problem with writing a Staff Report on an historical religious story is knowing when to stop. The religion asserts X, the historian or archaeologist says Y, the religion responds, the historian replies, and it goes on forever. There’s no end. If there were an end, one side or the other would have conceded by now. But that hasn’t happened. There’s always a counter-argument presented by one side to what’s presented by the other side.

You’ve hit this very well in an early point, with the question of whether the lack of indication in town records can prove an absence of revival. Then the historians will counter that by more detailed analysis of the town records, and then the religious will resond with another reason why the absence of evidence is inadequate, and…

So where do you stop in the back-and-forth? Again, we choose to present the two sides, and then stop: the religion’s mainstream beliefs, and then the history/archaeology. We’re trying to condense the ideas down to a reasonably managable Report, we’re not trying to write a multi-volume definitive work. And, in many of these questions, there are lengthy volumes written.

I’m sure someone will be along to write an even lengthier response to your comments, and we have these forums exactly for such additional discussion.

Heck, I’ll jump in. First of all, welcome, and thanks for including the link in your OP. I can’t do a point-by-point response to every detail of Mormon history, but I’ll offer what I can. Hence, there will be some necessary ellipses in the quotes from your OP.

Given your evident standard of adequacy, any Staff Report would be inadequate. There are only so many column inches (the Straight Dope is mainly a newspaper column, the web versions are still secondary) available.

I did see that Rico used not only unbiased historians, such as the producers of the PBS special included as a source, but also the LDS’s own literature about its history. He presented the story as told by the LDS Church, without snarkiness or sarcasm. I used to be a professional historical researcher, and am still a professional writer, and Rico’s presentation of their story would be quite easily within professional standards.

This means nothing more than the story of the founding of the LDS Church is colored by one’s belief system. Rico said as much himself.

I’m confused by this point. You say the Report presented the LDS side of the story adequately, and then you say it only presented the skeptic viewpoint. This is a self-contradictory position.

And the suggestion that Rico should have included actively hostile beliefs is equally baffling. Would you suggest that a Staff Report on Judiasm include the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

Nothing can “prove” the truth of their testimony, whether they were excommunicated or rejoined or member in good standing until death. Testimony about religious miracles is inherently esoteric, not logical. You consider their testimony about Smith’s translations truthful because you believe it, nothing more or less. The inherent value of that position is something will vary for each individual, and cannot be subjected to, or demonstrated by, scientific or legalistic analysis.

He does no such thing. He simply stated as fact that they were excommunicated, which is true. He does not say they disbelieved their own testimony.

This is the most strenuous adhockery possibly. The research on Meso-American cultures dates back to the initial contact of Europeans and Native Americans. Some of these cultures greeted the first Europeans, and the Spanish missionaries documented their cultures in texts that are still studied today. To claim that the evidence hasn’t been found because no-one has looked is disingenous.

Again, you are making self-contradictory statements. You acknowledge no less than three times that the official LDS position is adequately presented, yet you close by accusing the report of being one-sided.

One might also ask precisely what Meso-American cultures have to do with the Mound Builders, the locus classicus of both Mormon defense of the BoM and of non-Mormon debunking.

[QUOTE=paperbackwriter]
Heck, I’ll jump in. First of all, welcome, and thanks for including the link in your OP. I can’t do a point-by-point response to every detail of Mormon history, but I’ll offer what I can. Hence, there will be some necessary ellipses in the quotes from your OP.

Given your evident standard of adequacy, any Staff Report would be inadequate. There are only so many column inches (the Straight Dope is mainly a newspaper column, the web versions are still secondary) available.

I did see that Rico used not only unbiased historians, such as the producers of the PBS special included as a source, but also the LDS’s own literature about its history. He presented the story as told by the LDS Church, without snarkiness or sarcasm. I used to be a professional historical researcher, and am still a professional writer, and Rico’s presentation of their story would be quite easily within professional standards.

This means nothing more than the story of the founding of the LDS Church is colored by one’s belief system. Rico said as much himself.

I’m confused by this point. You say the Report presented the LDS side of the story adequately, and then you say it only presented the skeptic viewpoint. This is a self-contradictory position.

And the suggestion that Rico should have included actively hostile beliefs is equally baffling. Would you suggest that a Staff Report on Judiasm include the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?
No one can “prove” the truth of the believer’s testimony, whether he was excommunicated or a member in good standing. Testimony about religious miracles is inherently esoteric, not logical. A believer considers the testimony about Smith’s translations truthful because he believes it. The inherent value of that position varies for each individual, and cannot be subjected to, or demonstrated by, scientific analysis.

He does no such thing. He simply stated as fact that they were excommunicated, which is true. He does not say they disbelieved their own testimony.
This is the most strenuous adhockery possibly. The research on Meso-American cultures dates back to the initial contact of Europeans and Native Americans. Some of these cultures greeted the first Europeans, and the Spanish missionaries documented their cultures in texts that are still studied today. To claim that the evidence hasn’t been found because no-one has looked is disingenous.
Again, you are making self-contradictory statements. You acknowledge no less than three times that the official LDS position is adequately presented, yet you close by accusing the report of being one-sided.[/QUOTE
Of course the entire system of the LDS church is based on faith. Skipping all the possibly false reports of Smith’s early life and other details, I’m bothered by certain little details: When Mrs.Smith understandably complained about the followers spitting tobacco on the floor in her house, Mr. Smith conveniently had a revelation that told him tobacco was bad. When they ran out of wine for the sacrament, Mr. Smith came up with yet another revelation: Don’t need wine. Water will do. Later, after becoming involved with the Masons, he came up with all the temple ceremony and after Mrs. Smith complained at his attentions to some of the other women, it was a natural step for a vigorous young man to take on a few extra wives under the protection of the church. (Obviously that kind power tends to make men lusty) How could his wife complain about a heavenly revelation? The very story of seeing the “beings” in the grove and the subsequent gold plates, the interpretation of them behind a curtain - all these take a lot more blind faith than I have.
Having given the matter considerable attention, I came to the conclusion that the entire basis of the church is a hoax greater than Scientology (which didn’t even start out as a religion, but a self-iomprovement program. Believe me, I was there and saw it all: I particularly remember the bogus “clears”. From the look of things, however, in another hundred years, Scientology too will be right up there with the world’s great religions.)
Clearly, at the time, Mr. Smith’s followers were for the most part rather naive and besides, eveyrone likes a charismatic speaker. I can’t speak for church leaders, but no matter what they privately think or believe, it’s too late to call the whole thing off now. When any religious belief drags on long enough, it gains its own momentum and dignity no matter how ridiculous its humble beginnings.

One additional thought: People who stand around the house spitting tobaccy juice on the floor are obviously not very sophisticated and may be pardoned for providing an apt audience for a good storyteller.

I appreciate everyone’s comments – I apologize that I’m slow to respond – I know you’re probably used to much faster response times. Anyway I suppose you all think I’m a wild-eyed crackpot – just upset because someone said something I don’t like about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But that’s not it – I would expect that in an article such as this there would be negative information about the Church – that’s only fair. I didn’t mean to be contentious and I didn’t intend to go back and forth with as C K Dexter Haven said would be endless arguments – I meant only to cite some examples to illustrate my point.

What I was objecting to was the standard of evidence used – and apparently I did a poor job of explaining that. Let me try once more then I’ll briefly answer some of your specifics.

Surely, everyone (well almost) understands the difference between “Claims” and “Evidences” -

Claim - 1. maintain something is true: to say, without proof or evidence, that something is true.
Evidence - 1. something that gives a sign or proof of the existence or truth of something, or that helps somebody to come to a particular conclusion. (from Encarta online).

Any idiot with a mouth (or a keyboard) can make a claim about anything at all – it means almost nothing because it is provided without proof or evidence of any sort. Evidence is going to be something quantitative or substantial that can be verified, weighed, investigated, and logically considered – thus giving an indication of the truth. Of course evidence can also be false, misleading, incomplete, poorly interpreted, and on and on – but at least it can be analyzed giving you a sense of what you think is most likely to be the truth.

Let me take religion out of the picture and see if you can see my point - Suppose I were to write an article purportedly answering the question “Can you deliver the straight dope on the JFK assassination? Do the single shooter claims hold water or not?” If I believe strongly in the conspiracy theory and the guy on the grassy knoll - I would be more than happy to give a full recitation of all claims of the single shooter theory – BUT – the only evidence I give supports the conspiracy theory and makes the single shooter theory sound ridiculously impossible. Have I fairly answered the question or have I merely erected a soap box to spout off on my own opinion? Does only listing the claims of the opposition fairly assist anyone in an analysis of the evidence and the ability to conclude what is “the truth?” No, it does not. Just listing the claims is inadequate.

In addition, not only is a simple recitation of the opposition’s claims completely inadequate– it is essential to “prooove” my point of view – because that’s the target I’m going to shoot at and blow great big holes in.

If you knew little else about the JFK assassination you would have to conclude that a single shooter could never have done it – there’s not even any evidence in favor of the single shooter theory so why should you bother to look into it any further.

This is exactly what happened with this article. Rico listed some claims of Mormonism – meaning no evidence or means of fairly coming to a particular conclusion – since we’ve only heard evidence from one side. He sets up his target and then takes pot shots at it with his evidence. If you look carefully at that article there is not one single clue that any evidence in favor of Mormonism exists. Now I know that this is a standard method of setting up a question and then going about to prove your point – I use this method also in arguments I have written. But when I do so it is clear that I am a biased commentator and I am not trying to present evidence for both sides.

Why should I expect better from “The Straight Dope” – for one because it “claims” to be “fighting ignorance” not adding to it. Secondly because of the nature of the question that was asked – “Can you deliver the straight dope on Mormonism? Do their claims hold water or not? Who wrote the Book of Mormon?”. Vanukoff asked if their claims hold water OR NOT. That “or not” means that he should be able to expect some discussion of evidence’s for and against Mormonism. Not a one sided discussion where all the evidence just happens to point in the direction of my personal conclusions.

I doubt that an the Staff Report editorial board would have accepted an article that contained nothing but positive evidence for the Mormons.
One other point I seem to have confused you guys by both praising and disparaging Rico’s article. Hopefully it is clearer now – I am not stating a contradictory position. I was saying that the report presented the **claims[\b] of the LDS Church adequately and “without snarkiness or sarcasm”. For that Rico is to be commended because you might be surprised how difficult it seems to be for most writers to get even that much right – even though all they have to do is go to Church sources. But as explained above the treatment of those claims was completely one-sided – and presents only skeptical evidence.

Sorry about screwing up the bolding above - is there a way to edit it ?

Ok – some responses to your comments–

Cadolphin -

I understand space is limited and yes I used more space than Rico – maybe it takes more to dispel a falsehood than to present the evidence in the first place. But really – you exaggerate a little – Rico did not have 1/4 to 1/5 of the space. He used about 4/5ths of the space I did :
Rico’s article – about 1511 words (7385 characters w/o spaces)
My response - about 1852 words (8659 “ “ “ “ “)
By contrast C K Dexter Haven’s article Who Wrote the Bible? Part 1 (of 5) had 3121 words and 15603 chars and there were 4 more parts to it about as big – Is size really the issue?
I wasn’t suggesting “presenting all the information”, but is even one fact too much to ask?
If became a member of the board I doubt I could devote much time to it – as you see my responses take me days to get around to writing – perhaps I could participate on a redo of this question since just about my only area of expertise anyway.

C K Dexter Haven –
I have been reading “The Straight Dope” off and on for years and have read those reports – for the most part they express scholarly views and are well written. As you said – “They all take pretty much the same approach: they present the religion’s take on some event, and then they present any archaeological/historical evidence that may support or not support the religious perspective.” That’s fine – That’s fair – but about the article in question there is ZERO support presented for the religious perspective - all the support presented is against it. Is that fair? As I wrote in my first post there is evidence for both sides. So according to your criteria Rico did not take the approach he should have.

Looking at your report “Who wrote the Bible (Part 1)?” For the most part you present the scholarly view and the methods they use to deconstruct the text. It was well done and well informed (do you hear a huge sucking sound?) – you even consulted a PhD to help you out. You don’t give a lot of space to the traditionalist view but at the very least you explain that “there are many profound scholars on both sides” and along the way you “interject at this point to say that traditionalists have answers to all the points raised by Documentary scholars …” And then give at least 3 evidences to explain their point of view. In part 3 you even note the Documentary scholars have a bias against the existence of prophecy –and believers have one for the existence of prophecy – both assumptions coloring how they are going to interpret the facts. That’s pretty fair. And it was by that type of criterion that I challenged the fairness of the Mormonism article.

You said “We do not present the side of the anti-Christians, the anti-LDS, the anti-semites, the anti-Muslims, or whatever,” In that case – you’ve been had - almost all of the evidences used by Rico are taken not from scholarly studies but from religionists, like Jerald and Sandra Tanner, who admit quite frankly that they hate Mormonism and that their sole purpose is to bring down the Church and rescue the poor misguided souls that fall prey to it’s lies.
Paperbackwriter –
I’ve already responded to some of your comments in my second post and I’m sure you don’t want me repeating myself. For an article like this I don’t expect an Encyclopedia Britannica article - but would a source referencing one professional opinion be excessive? You mention that Rico used unbiased sources – “such as the producers of the PBS special included as a source”. Even though that web site is listed it is mainly an advertisement for PBS and does little more than describe the broadcast. I can’t identify what information he used from it – if I missed it I apologize.

You said “Would you suggest that a Staff Report on Judiasm include the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion?” Frankly, I would rather information come from that source and I know the source, understanding that it’s propaganda; than information that comes from someone almost as biased but being left to assume that it comes from credible “unbiased” scholars.

You said “Nothing can “prove” the truth of their testimony… “ , you’re right – I got overly excited and misspoke (miswrote?) – it’s just evidence. And while generally you are correct that “Testimony about religious miracles is inherently esoteric” the Book of Mormon is a bit different from anything you’re probably used to. All other religious texts can not be dated accurately, so prophecies can be easily discounted. The Book of Mormon is known beyond any doubt to have been written before 1830 – so if it contains things that no human could have known about before that date – then it contains some very strong “logical” and “legalistic” evidence (note also that testimonies of eye-witnesses and death bed confessions are legal methods to determine the “truth” in a court of law).

I never said there’s been no research and that no one has looked – I said “research of Meso-American subcultures is still in its infancy”. That’s not adhockery, but I it was just a quick comment on an argument you may not be familiar with. To be more precise - I’m comparing the depth of Meso-American archeology to Biblical archeology, which is what our critics generally fail to take into consideration. Comparatively the details of Meso-American culture are not nearly as well known – even the translations of their languages have been around for only a short time, and there are scripts in several languages that can not yet be translated. Only since the 1950’s have the historians realized that those Mayan/Aztec cultures were not composed of pacifist priest clans but were really in a state of near constant warfare. – For more details I recommend “Breaking the Maya Code” by Michael D. Coe.

Also it is those same Mayan/Aztec cultures who greeted the Spanish that get the most attention - but this occurred 1000 years after the close of the Book of Mormon, and those civilizations are not believed to have begun until about 300 to 500 years after the close of the story. Scientists are studying about all periods of course but consider this article at www.brightsurf.com/news/may_03/EDU_news_051603_e.html . “May 16, 2003 A team of archaeologists … have found strong archaeological evidence for the existence of a previously unknown prehistoric civilisation in the jungle on the Atlantic coast of Nicaragua… The most significant aspect is the identification of the existence of a complex society that inhabited the area for 10 centuries, between 750 B.C. and approximately 400 A.D. and which later disappeared, leaving no trace of continuity.” So they can still find an unknown civilization down there – not just a minor community but one that lasted 1000 years. The most interesting thing to me is that the Book of Mormon describes a group around that area, from 600 B.C to 424 A.D and which disappeared, leaving no trace of continuity. I’m not saying that this group is the group the Book of Mormon speaks of - but It would certainly be premature to close the book on the issue.

John W. Kennedy –
You’d have to show me where your information comes from. The Book of Mormon says nothing about “Mound Builders” and they are in no way a locus of any sort of modern “Mormon defense” that I know about, except perhaps to say that the View of the Hebrews” uses them as evidence for its conclusions – unlike the Book of Mormon.
Pplepic –

To answer your religious question you assume coincidences – that’s one possibility. You may not believe in prayer so my answer may be unsatisfying to you, but for the sake of argument just assume for a minute that prayer works and God answers prayer. It makes sense that God does not answer a question until it has been asked. It is our philosophy that he hates to force people to do things – so, often it is not until the question gets asked or the concern crops up that he reveals what he wants.

Tobacco chewing and spitting were much more common in the 1830’s from people of many social classes. You can’t let the modern world color your perceptions of what is normal and acceptable in other places and times.

The “charismatic” Joseph Smith theory, has some truth - certainly he was, but it also fails to take into account that around the end of the 1830’s to I think into the mid 1840’s the Church was larger in England, among a people who had never heard Joseph Smith, than it was in America. The English had only the evidence of the Book of Mormon and the testimony of the apostles – who I don’t think have ever been accused of being any where near as charismatic as Joseph Smith. Also Joseph generally made far fewer converts that the missionaries he sent out – most never met Joseph until after they joined the Church and gathered to Ohio and Illinois.

Of course the entire system of any church is based on faith -but I do not believe in blind faith either – that’s why I objected to the article in the first place.

I don’t know much about Mormonism, so I’ll stay out of this discussion, but I just want to say that I hope you stick around, Chemish. That was a pretty amazing first post.

Agreed, I think you’ll be a valuable poster, Chemish.

In this case, I think you are expecting too much of Staff Reports. We are not trying (or able) to present a definitive solution to the question of the LDS origin. In the first place, we don’t have the space, it would take volumes. In the second place, despite the volumes written, there almost certainly is no definitive conclusion.

In the question of “evidence” vs “claims,” I think that’s an interesting but irrelevant side-track. If you want evidence, the report would have been much shorter: there is no reasonable evidence whatsoever of the existence of God, angels, or golden plates… other than the testimony of obviously biased sources. (I’m not picking on LDS here, there is also no evidence whatsoever of the existence of Abraham, Moses, Jesus’ miracles, etc. Nor that the angel Gabriel dictated the Koran to Mohammed.) You take those things on faith, or you don’t. Asking for evidence, IMHO, is ultimately self-defeating from the perspective of any religion.

For Staff Reports, we try to remain as balanced as possible, mostly. In matters that have a clear-cut resolution (such as Was the Apollo moon landing a hoax?, we are indeed one-sided. We present the (idiotic) claims and we refute them. This is not a case of science vs religious belief, this is a case of science vs fraud, lies, distortions, misunderstanding, and paranoia.

In matters that have no resolution, such as those involving religion – ANY religion – we try to explain what the religion says, and what science/archaeology/etc say, in as simple and straight-forward a way as we can. Our reader is typically NOT the archaeologist, or the Ph.D. in religious esoterica. Nor is our reader typically the fervent religious believer for any one particular religion. (Not to say we don’t have Orthodox Jews, or well-versed Catholics, or deeply commited Mormons, or … We certainly do. But for any one religion such readers are a distinct minority.)

We are trying to present the basic arguments for the non-trained non-professional outsider. And to describe references, so the person who wants to learn more, can go do so.

Frankly, I thought Rico’s report was terrific. It had a stamp of “reasonably objective” from a deeply-religious believer, and it gave me a short, quick overview of a topic about which I knew nothing before. Did it help me make up my mind? Certainly not. My mind was already made up, since LDS is completely contrary to my own religious upbringing and beliefs. (I suspect that most readers have their minds already made up.)

Did it help make me a better person by educating me slightly, or introducing me, to the question of Mormon origins and authorship? Absolutely. And that’s all we can expect from a Staff Report. Our job is not to try to convert non-believers, nor to try to tempt believers into leaving the religion. Our job is not to present argument, counter-argument, counter-counter argument, “Your source is biased/No, your source is biased” type of circles.

When it comes to religion, almost all sources are biased, one way or the other.

Our target audience knows nothing (or next to nothing) about the topic, and this serves as a wonderful intro. LDS 101, if you will. That’s all any of our Staff Reports try to do.

Chemish, I think you’re asking for the impossible. You set up a dichotomy between claims and evidence, and then ask why the evidence for the Book of Mormon hasn’t been presented. Under your formulation, the only thing that the Book of Mormon has in its favor are claims - oral and written testimony. There isn’t any evidence in it’s favor.

By that, I mean there are no testable, falsifiable bodies of physical or archeological substatiation for the claim that Joseph was visited first by God the Father and Jesus the Son, followed by the angel Moroni. There is no evidence, as you have used the term, to demonstrate that Moroni instructed Smith were to find certain golden plates, and that Smith took these plates and translated them into the Book of Mormon we have today. There isn’t even any evidence that the “Reformed Egyptian” from which he translated the Book of Mormon ever existed, outside one proven forgery and a document contemporary to the Book prepared by one of Smith’s followers.

The only corroboration for the story told by Smith about the Book of Mormon’s genesis is oral testimony. That is, the only evidence isn’t evidence as you used the term yourself; it’s the claims of Smith and his family and followers.

Perhaps slightly tangential, but I wished the report had mentioned the Kinderhook Plates. I don’t mean this to be a bash on Mormonism, but I’m genuinely curious as to how believers deal with the fact that a clear forgery was accepted by both the church’s founder and subsequent authorities as evidence of Mormonism’s claims. Does the church have an official line on this? The Wikipedia article just mentions the general agreement that the plates are forgeries. Does the LDS Church agree on this as well? Or are they still disputing the authenticity?

Here is a link to an article in the August, 1981 issue of the Ensign, the official magazine of the LDS church.

Statements purportedly made by Joseph Smith at the time were apparently actually written by others in the first person, as if by Smith, and were siezed upon by anti-Mormons to show Smith’s gullibility.

AFAIK, the Church has never claimed that the Kinderhook plates have any relation to the Book of Mormon, and there is no reliable reference that Joseph Smith took more than a passing interest in them.

I really don’t see that that establishes much of anything, one way or the other. The fact that William Henry Ireland (1777 - 1835) forged monstrous quantities of Shakespeare mss. does not make the paranoid theories of the various anti-Shakespearean loonies one whit the more probable (except in their own diseased minds).

Did you read the Wiki article? It says that Smith worked on translating the plates. If, as the LDS church claims, Smith was actually translating heavenly documents with divine help, then he should have looked at the Kinderhook plates and instantly declared that he was unable to translate them. If he indeed worked on translating them, that would tend to demonstrate that his other translation activity was of a similar kind, i.e., making stuff up.

However, as FatBaldGuy has pointed out, it appears as though Smith’s interest in and work on the Kinderhook plates has been overstated by anti-Mormon activists. If this is indeed the case, their significance is indeed diminished.

**Chemish ** like a couple of other people have already said, I hope you stick around and join the SDMB. I agree with the others that you would be a good addition to the Straight Dope.

I’m NOT a debater. Never have been, never intend to be. It’s not something I’ve ever enjoyed when I’ve engaged in it. So I will continue to read but since this is a debate, unless there is something other then that that I think I can contribute to, I’ll leave you debaters to your thing.

You might want to familiarize yourself with who are LDS and who aren’t. You can find a lot of that from looking at my Ask the Mormon thread from a couple years ago. It went 6 pages and a number of people asked and answered many questions. It was a fun thread to do.

I accept I exaggerated a tad since you say so. I’m not going to search for a site to count the letters/strokes. That’s just to trivial for me.

If you can set that aside, I’ll look forward to welcoming you to the board when you join :slight_smile:

Kathy

Well, speaking as someone who knew a few things about the LDS church but very little of its history, I would say that the article was pretty good as a start, but that this thread was much more informative and interesting as a whole, and enough to finally tip the scales and make me pay the $9.95 for a year’s membership. :eek:

If I have learned anything in life, and this is an arguable point according to my wife, whom I love, and is unfortunatly too often correct on matters like this, :smack: it is that matters of faith, and ones own relationship with God, or lack thereof, are often the single most personal and intimate thing in a person’s life. Not always, but often.

When someone is deeply religious, they mean it, it is extremely important to them, it is essential to their being, their sense of self, it is not something to be toyed with, or argued with, or messed with. Anyone doing so is risking a grave error in judgement.

This is why it is often difficult for people who are deeply religous and of different faiths to come together and reach consensus. Especially when beliefs are deeply ingrained, often from birth or close to it, and part of a person’s whole world view and sense of being.

The internet is changing the world in a positive way I think, because it allows discussions like this to happen and be observed in a neutral, safe, distance. Where time can pass and tempers can cool and thought and consideration can be given to responses on sensitive topics. But it has also made us more aware of religious differences and made us ask, if we are so different, what can it mean? We can’t all be right can we? Everyone else has to be wrong, right?

This is going to be a hard one for most organized religions. For ages God needed to speak to people who were spread very far apart in the world and chose different people to be his messengers. Each brought him or herself to the task over the ages and not always with the same results. Cultural differences had a huge impact. And the absence of easy contact with other cultures made the purity of the religious message reasonably intact. Though inevitably wars broke out, even amongst religous men, convinced they were doing God’s work.

If one accepts the existence of God, one must wonder what God really felt about all the deaths. Could any creator really rejoice at the deaths of any of his creations?

Do what do we do today? Aye, there’s the rub.

Well, I thank all for contributing to these threads.

Peter

http://thepeterfiles.blogspot.com

Welcome, The Peter Files, we’re glad to have you with us.

As Moderator, I would, however, like to try to confine this thread to comments about the Staff Report. A discussion about faith (and attempts to reconcile faiths) or about God, or any such religious topic, rightly belongs in the forum called “Great Debates.” This thread is about the Staff Report on the LDS, and I’d please like to try to keep it to topic.