Moses Farrow defends Woody Allen

I’m reviving this thread to say that, after having watched the first three episodes of Allen v. Farrow on HBO last night, my views on the case have flipped 180 degrees. I am now convinced Allen is guilty and molested his adopted daughter Dylan in August 1992. I urge anyone who believes that Allen is innocent to watch the four-hour series.

Before last night, like many others in this thread, I thought that Allen was probably not guilty and that Farrow had probably made up the allegations and coached Dylan because she was angry at Allen about his relationship with Soon-Yi. But the documentary makes clear that much of what I thought, and that has been argued here, is not true, or is Allen’s self-interested spin on the situation.

I will try to put down some of the most damaging facts to Allen’s claims of innocence. (This is all from memory, so although I’m trying to be as careful and precise as possible, I may make some – hopefully minor – mistakes in what follows.)

Three babysitters who were present at Farrow’s home at the time of the incident testified in the later custody trial that Allen and Dylan were missing for at least 20 minutes. One of them said that as they started searching the house for Dylan, she saw them in the TV room, Dylan seated with Allen on his knees facing her, with his head in her lap. Dylan would later tell Farrow that Allen then took her up to the attic and put his finger in her vagina.

Shortly after that, Farrow took Dylan to a doctor, who spoke with Dylan and reported the possibility of sexual abuse of a minor to the Connecticut police, as required by law.

Farrow began making video recordings of Dylan whenever she started to talk about the incident. These tapes, which were presented at the custody hearing, are probably the most damning evidence in the show, because Farrow is extremely careful not to ask leading questions, and Dylan’s answers clearly are not the result of coaching. My wife, herself a survivor of child sexual abuse, says that the tapes show a child telling the truth. In case my wife’s opinion isn’t enough for you, five independent experts the filmmakers brought in agreed.

The Yale New Haven Hospital report is highly suspect. The fact that they interviewed Dylan nine times was criticized by the experts as contrary to best practices, even 30 years ago: the ideal is to subject the child to as little reliving of the experience as possible. Much was made of the fact that the team’s contemporaneous notes were destroyed, which is also a violation of professional practice.

The hospital, instead of handing the report over to the police and the district attorney who had commissioned it, without notifying them, called a press conference to announce results that were widely reported as completely exhonorating Allen. This obviously made it much harder for the CT prosecutor to proceed.

At the same time, the New York City Child Welfare Agency was conducting its own investigation (because Dylan was a resident of NY), and caseworker who interviewed her concluded that there was evidence to support a criminal charge against Allen. He was pressured to change his report, which he refused to do, and despite having previously been given official awards and recognition, was fired for insubordination. The documentary suggests that Mayor David Dinkins, or members of his administration, were responsible for quashing the investigation, because Allen’s movies bring millions of dollars to New York. The caseworker sued and was restored to his job, but his supervisor quit within a year, disgusted at the special treatment that someone like Allen could get.

The filmmakers reveal that in looking through dozens of boxes of files in the course of their three-year investigation, they found contemporaneous notes from the NY caseworker (that weren’t destroyed!) about a conversation he had had with a member of the Yale New Haven team who admitted to him that she thought that Allen had molested Dylan.

Allen sued Farrow to gain full custody of Moses, Dylan and Satchel (now known as Ronan), alleging she was an unfit mother. The judge denied his request, said there was no evidence that she had coached Dylan, called Allen’s behavior toward Dylan “grossly inappropriate,” said the case was “frivolous,” and awarded Farrow $1 million to cover her legal fees.

As for why Moses is defending Allen now, the show gives some hints about that, too. Moses had no father figure in his life before Allen, and the two bonded very closely. After the revelation of Allen’s relationship with Soon-Yi, Moses wrote Allen a letter (shown in the show) saying he was no longer his father, but he later recanted and they reconciled. It is not surprising that Soon-Yi and Moses are the only ones saying Farrow was abusive.

After reading a review of the series that said it took Farrow’s side, was not inclined to watch it, since I thought the evidence in Allen’s favor was pretty strong. (I will admit that I hadn’t done a lot of my own research, but relied on things I had read here and other second-hand reports.) But my wife wanted to see it, and as we watched I increasingly realized that the facts that had previously swayed me were either not as persuasive as I had thought (e.g., the Yale New Haven report) or were spin that Allen had cleverly put out to deflect blame from himself: the custody battle that flipped the charges of child abuse back on Farrow and created the “hysterical woman scorned” narrative.

There is much more in the series (and I haven’t even seen the final episode yet) that I could mention, but this post is already too long. I urge those here who have defended Allen (I was one of you until last night!) to watch it and make up your own minds.

I’ve not seen the documentary and don’t intend to, but I’ve seen a lot of articles highlighting the most important points raised (which generally align with what’s been posted here). Based on that, I think Allen is almost certainly innocent, and the documentary is worthless propaganda.

The most salient argument in favor of Allen remains: it’s virtually unheard of for a person to live an entire life and molest exactly one child. To this I would add, that’s it would also be extremely atypical for a pedophile to not only molest only one child over the course of a long life, but to have no apparent interest in children altogether. Very hard to overcome this.

ETA: people make a big deal about Allen’s attraction to young girls, but that’s only relevant to the Soon-Yi issue. The attraction to young girls is completely unrelated to the attraction to prepubescent children.

I am not impressed with any criticisms of the Yale New Haven team. One thing I’ve learned from a lot of trials is that you can always come up with experts who criticize the procedures of other experts on all sorts of grounds if you’re motivated to. Nothing at all in that. Bottom line is that the YNH team were probably the most unbiased and qualified team of experts to look into it, so their conclusion counts the most.

The “attic” story sounds bogus. Partially because Moses Farrow has denied that there was a train set in the attic to begin with. And partially because it sounds too similar to the “With My Daddy In The Attic” song written by Dory Previn for an album dealing with her husband’s affair with Mia Farrow.

Mia Farrow is a professional actress, and coming across as believable onscreen is her stock-in-trade, so it’s not surprising that she might give a persuasive performance in this film. But she is a very strong-willed woman and extremely determined about this particular matter, and not credible. In addition some of the things she said in the documentary (e.g. her reaction to Soon-Yi) apparently contradicted things she said under oath back in the day.

Bottom line: I think the likelihood that Allen molested Dylan is probably significantly less than 1%.

As I understand it, without having seen any of the episodes, the documentary is totally a function of the Farrow side without having worked with the Allen side at all.

What you’re seeing, therefore, is the equivalent of the prosecutor’s side of the case in a trial. Of course it appears absolutely convincing: the prosecutors would be derelict in their duty if it were any less.

That’s why having a fair trial with a full and competent defense presentation is so critical. Without one people get railroaded.

HBO is in the business of luring viewers to pay money for their service. They do not have to be fair and equitable. Viewers need to take onto themselves the responsibility of asking, “what’s the other side?” I’m afraid few will.

As I’ve said, both of these replies are exactly how I felt about the case and the documentary before I watched it.

Again, I felt the same way, but consider that up till now, basically all that we have heard about the case has been from Allen’s side. He (and the children under his influence) are the only ones saying Farrow is a vindictive and abusive mother. He is the one who claimed (on 60 Minutes) that it was illogical that he would abuse Dylan when other people were around. And so on.

If you are concerned about objectively evaluating both sides, why do you refuse to hear Farrow’s side?

Don’t forget that the only real judge who has heard both sides of the story in a court of law came down on Farrow’s side in the custody case.

Yes, HBO is in the business of making money, but I believe their documentaries are highly regarded. They are not Fox News. And if they were fabricating stuff, they’d have to face a lawsuit from Allen. (I don’t happen to know if the filmmakers tried to get Allen to participate. They haven’t mentioned it explicitly if they did. They close each episode with the statement that he has denied abusing Dylan.)

Here on the SDMB we often accuse people of not looking fairly at both sides of issues, of being guilty of confirmation bias, etc., etc. This is one of the few times in my adult life where I have completely reversed my opinion on a subject that I thought was settled. In watching the show, I realized that I had only seen one side of the story, and had fallen prey to confirmation bias myself. I started out very skeptical of the filmmakers’ viewpoint, and little by little I came to see that I had been wrong, and the “facts” I thought I knew were not what I had believed them to be.

I’m respectfully asking posters here, most of whom I respect a great deal, to set aside their biases and watch the show. To paraphrase Oliver Cromwell, I beseech you, in the bowels of Og, think it possible you may be mistaken.

This is an incredible and bizarre statement. Even before the documentary, we’ve heard a lot more from the Farrow side than from the Allen side.

I’ve heard from Farrow’s side in the same form that I’ve heard Allen’s side, in the form of summaries from others who heard from it firsthand. I don’t see any reason to spend a lot of time viewing a propaganda piece from one side.

The custody trial did not depend on the validity of the abuse allegations. Allen was not an experienced or fit parent and he was never going to win that case, abuse or no abuse.

@commasense, Have you not read the thread at all? Have you not paid attention to the claims and counterclaims for the past 30 years? Everybody here has paid attention to both sides. And Farrow’s side has been disseminated far more widely because Allen hasn’t said anything until recently. Almost the entire public conversation has been pro-Farrow for 30 years.

Worse than your accusations against us is your repeated claim that because you listened to the prosecution’s case you can stop listening. That’s worse than disingenuous, that’s actively dangerous to society as a principle. Why should we pay attention to someone capable of saying that?

That ruling received very widespread media coverage. It was very damaging to Allen’s reputation and that alone contradicts your statement that we only hear from Allen’s side. Furthermore, the case was only about custody and not the Dylan accusation. The judge did, however, seem to me to have taken a personal dislike to Allen and criticized his personal character and lifestyle far more than I thought was justified. I’m sure Allen does defend himself in his bio (I haven’t read it) but one might note that Mia Farrow, Dylan, and Ronan persecuted Allen relentlessly to the point that the original publishers for his bio canceled the contract, and AIUI Allen has had to move much of his movie production to Europe because of this harassment.

As far as the Dylan matter is concerned, I have no idea what really happened and I don’t think it will ever be known. Frankly I don’t trust either side in this sordid dispute. I do think that Mia is quite capable of malicious fabrication, but that doesn’t prove anything one way or the other.

I don’t think Allen would ever have won that case, accusation or no accusation, because it would have required removing a child from the situation she had always lived in, to an unfamiliar situation. Judges rarely take that step unless the situation in which the child currently lives is shown to be dangerous, or otherwise inappropriate somehow.

I remember when this first happened, and I was with Farrow and her indignation all the way until Farrow started slinging character assassination at both Allen and Previn. She told reporters that Soon-yi Previn had been diagnosed as mentally retarded, and Allen was taking advantage of someone who could not consent. This accusation never gained any traction, though, since it was so demonstrably false.

She trotted out the accusations of abuse of Dylan some time into the kerfuffle, claiming that it had been going on for some time.

The timeline was very strange. Strictly following Farrow’s timeline, it looked like she knew about the abuse while she and Allen were still together, but chose not to report it, and reported it only once he left her.

I will stipulate that I may have been less well informed than everyone here about the case over the past 30 years, but I agreed with those who thought Allen was probably not guilty, mostly for the reasons that have been presented in this thread (which, yes, I have read completely) and others like it. Then I saw evidence – real evidence, not innuendo or accusations – in the documentary that led me to change those beliefs.

For instance, I had not seen the contemporaneous videos Farrow made of Dylan describing the incident. I found them compelling and persuasive. Had they been aired previously? Had people here seen them, and found them not credible? If you have not seen them, are you comfortable dismissing them as staged without even looking at them or listening to why experts believe they were not staged?

The documentary presented lots of other information, some of which I have described above, that was new to me, and that I found persuasive. The show is undoubtedly taking Farrow’s side, but does that mean that it should be dismissed out of hand in its entirety? As a wise man has said,

All I’m saying is that if people are so sure that the documentary is all wrong, why not watch it and bring us some examples of why it’s wrong? (I know what someone will say: it would be a waste of time. Yet people here spend hours debating flat earthers and moon hoaxers. :roll_eyes:)

But seriously, maybe I have had the wool pulled over my eyes, in which case I would really appreciate someone who has actually seen it explaining how I was deluded, instead of being upbraided by people who haven’t even seen it.

What did I accuse anyone of, except possibly being biased, which I admitted to being guilty of myself, and which we all are in various ways?

Where did I say I or anyone can or should stop listening?

And isn’t that precisely what you are doing?

Well, you announced in your post #101 “I am now convinced Allen is guilty and molested his adopted daughter Dylan in August 1992.” That does sound very much as though you have reached what you consider a firm conclusion about the case.

There were a lot of videos made at the time. If some looked as if Dylan was coached and some did not, then the overall assessment has to be that she was coached even if this was not apparent in every single video. But if you pick out the ones which seemed more natural, then you can present a misleading picture. So by viewing the documentary without confidence that they’ve shown all the Dylan videos, you’re making yourself less educated rather than more educated.

[I believe everyone agrees that Dylan first told the pediatrician that Allen had touched her shoulder, then left the doctor’s office with Mia and returned to say no, it was her genitals. Dylan says that she was embarrassed at first, but whether her mother built up her courage or told her what to say, there’s little doubt that she was influencing the story.]

…ya know, the arguments you two were making would be ever so slightly more convincing if you both watched the documentary in question.

If you get this simple fact wrong, what is the point of even listening to you on the rest? Instead of asking everyone else to watch a 4 hour doc, how about you read this thread and get some actual info from both sides?

How does Allen have influence over any of the children? He never raised any of them did he? Didn’t they all live with Farrow?

Why? What good is watching a totally one sided documentary? If you were watching an unbiased show, the show should have told both sides so you could judge fairly.

This is the biggest point in Allen’s favor. Pedophiles are not just pedophiles once. Even when it is father-daughter, eventually it seems the father turns to a younger daughter.

…ya know, maybe you could ad something to the thread instead of assuming the posters have no info on the matter if they don’t watch a 4 hour promo piece for Farrow. Or, …ya know, maybe you can spend 4 hours reading every thing ever printed by people on Allen’s side and then make your decision based on that. …ya know.

Another couple of things about why I think Allen is not a pedo. His almost total lack of interest in children at all. Pedos like being around children and often seek interactions with them. Children seem to be totally off of Allen’s radar.
Also, just look at all the other children that were raised by Farrow. It’s like she was a child hoarder. The fact that so many of them had mental or emotional problems, drug abuse problems, and dying at a young age speaks volumes about Farrow as a mother. Plus, the abuse allegations about her towards her children seem to get glossed over. I bet none of that stuff made the documentary.

Well, if you watched you could certainly contribute your thoughts on whether it is even-handed or not.

But we’re not the only ones asking the obvious questions about fairness. So are people who did watch.

…ya know, I actually did add something to this thread.

Everything I know about this case I’ve learnt from this thread. We are in Great Debates, which means that “both sides” get to lay down their arguments and I can read them and make up my own mind on whom is making the stronger case.

And commasense made a very reasonable post in this thread. And in response to that reasonable post we get stuff like this:

This entire thread reads like a promo piece for Allen. Almost the entire discourse over the internet reads like a promo piece for Allen. Not because people don’t try and argue the other side, but because whenever somebody tries to argue the other side they get attacked in the very same way as we’ve literally just witnessed here.

So as a person who has almost zero investment in this case I don’t think you’ve made a very strong argument here at all. Argument from incredibility is a fallacy. You don’t have to watch the documentary. But you’ve got zero standing to dismiss it as propaganda.

…I haven’t watched it, and have almost zero interest in the case. I’m judging the strength of your argument based on the fact you haven’t watched it.

I too can google, and I too can find plenty of other people on the internet who disagree with your cite on the fairness of the documentary. But those people aren’t participating in this thread.

[bashes head on desk] Are you freaking kidding me? 99% of the popular comment on the issue for the past 30 years has been pro-Farrow and virulently anti-Allen. This thread is a small area in which some semblance of fairness is being attempted.

If you bothered to read the thread, which you didn’t do or did while borrowing the memory of a goldfish, people commenting here both have considerable familiarity with both sides. We’ve seen the total unreasoning onesidedness of previous defenses of Farrow and are making the rest of the case. A documentary that boasts of working with Farrow and excluding Allen is suspicious on its face.

If you heard of a four-hour documentary that totally relied on moon-hoaxers and refused to talk to NASA would you sit down and watch it assiduously? Or might you reasonably wonder why in the world nobody talked to the other side before airing? Or even ask why anyone would rush off to believe its case? That’s what we’re doing.

…[bashes head on desk] are you freaking kidding me? 99% of the popular comment on the issue for the past 30 years has been pro-Allen and virulently anti-Farrow.

I’ve read the entire thread. I’m entitled to make a judgement based on what I’ve read and the arguments that have been made.

And I don’t have the memory of a goldfish. This is exactly what I’m talking about. The passive-aggressive insults are only coming from one side here. And it doesn’t help your case.

It’s over to you to prove that the documentary makers are the equivalent of moon-hoaxers. Do you not understand that? You can’t just assert this and expect me to believe you.

Yeah, right. That’s why Allen lost his multi-million deal at Amazon and why dozens of actors have apologized for working with him and sworn never to do so again and why he’s been vilified over and over by multiple publications.

If you believe your statement there’s no use arguing with you. You live in a different universe from the rest of us.

Since several people have commented on my statement above, I want to 1) withdraw and modify it and 2) point out that it is far from “a simple fact,” and is probably the source of a great deal of of the disagreement here and elsewhere.

I should have said that the documentary made me realize that much of what > I < (not we) thought I knew about the case was from Allen’s side. (I trust no one will presume to argue with me about what I may or may not have known or thought. But this is the Straight Dope, so you never know.)

But @mordecaiB’s implicit assertion that what “we” know about the case is an objective fact, or even that there can be a general consensus, is clearly not the case. Every person who knows anything about the case knows a different set of facts. I have admitted that I may not have been as conversant with the whole panoply of publicly available information as others here. But no one knows all of the facts.

And only two people in the universe have any certain knowledge about what happened (or didn’t) in that attic in August 1992.

What I knew until a few days ago was enough to persuade me, like many of you,
that Allen was probably not guilty. The additional information in the documentary led me to change my mind.

Saying that I have changed my mind is the same as saying that everyone else should stop listening? Really?

So you missed this part in the post you were responding to: