Those substitutions fly wonderfully because when you make the substitutions, the argument as presented does become the oppressive arguments I said it does. The problem is that the “Your group is evil, I don’t like 'em; and so I’ll make your group an exception to the usual rights people get and then I’ll use the government to quash you!” argument is a hammer that can be used as easily by other people on groups you are in as on the groups you personally find repellent.
In fact, on reflection, the argument What Exit? made is the logic the nazis used to oppress the jews. Turning it around and using it back on them might sound like poetic justice until you realize that in doing so you’re reopening a can of worms that can then be turned around again and used on anybody.
The only safe course is not to go down that road at all. So, no special cases.
As I read it, the girl drew the thing on herself, first, so she’s not a pawn at all. And I suppose it is fucked up to try and defend your child’s rights to express an opinion. They should just duck their heads and hide and hope we don’t find them and send them to concentration camps or something, right?
It’s a hijack, but just in the interest of fighting ignorance…
Hexagrams as the ‘Seal of Solomon’ were extensively used in Islamic ( or at least Anatolian Turkish ) iconography. This is the flag of the Turkish state of Candar, a smallish 14th/15th century emirate in Anatolia: File:Candar.png - Wikipedia
Of course it is fucked up. But to claim that the Nazis stood for nothing but conquest and anti-semitism is irrelevant and also utterly incorrect.
To remove someone’s children for what is core political speech/belief is abhorrent to me. As I posted earlier, what this involved might have been a criminal act in Canada, which alters the situation. It’s not a law I believe should be on the books, but I am much more comfortable with this act if it was based on the mother deliberately involving the child in criminal acts than if it bsaed on the motehr sharing her beliefs with the child.
I can’t follow your argument at all. If the Nazis are a special case, as you have claimed, that is from their abhorrent ideology, not their symbolism. What you are saying is that you have no problems with her teaching her child that Jews should be exterminated, as long as she does not put a swastika up anywhere, unless I am misreading you. And that makes no sense to me at all.
Everyone in the world knows they are the perfect person to work out which forms of belief should be censored. The problem is, we also all think that everyone else has the wrong list of unacceptable beliefs.
sure, but there’s lot’s of things going on in schools and at homes that essentially amount to submerging kids in politics and ideology that they have no way of independently evaluating themselves. This may be more abhorrent and it might also make life harder for the kids later on in life, but it’s essentially the same.
Historically, arguing that the National-Socialist ideology does not propose an alternative system of government or economy or society is ludicrous nonsense. But that aside, who are we to judge someone’s belief system on how coherent and complete it is? So someone holds a political opinion and we just walk up to them and say ‘what you say does not meet our standards of coherence so it is not relevant’? I don’t know which standards those would be, but I’m afraid there are none, and also that fear and hate are political.
Is the agency seriously proposing to remove children from all families that belong to White Pride organizations or espouse such beliefs? 'Cause there are quite a few of them. As abhorrent as such beliefs are, they do not consitute child abuse.
We have enough actual cases of child abuse that get ignored until it’s too late. We already have an overburdened child welfare system. And the system seems to like to spend effort wrongly taking cared-for children out of homes, while often letting neglected and abused children slip through the cracks.
I don’t like christianity. So I should get to say that anybody who causes or allows their child to display christain iconography should have their children taken away from them!!
I don’t even know what “pure and simple evil” means. I’m absolutely certain, 100% positive, that at least one member of the Nazi party loved his children, his wife and perhaps puppies. No one, not even Hitler himself, is or was ever “pure and simple evil”. That’s an emotional argument, not a logical one.
There are swastikas inlaid in tile in the swimming pool near me (built in the 20’s). When I took my teenage goddaughters there, they literally freaked out, screaming in horror. A few :rolleyes: and a history lesson later, and they calmed down, but still…it’s a few lines in a fairly pretty shape. It’s not going to hurt you.
Going all Voldemort on it simply *gives *it power. Far better to ogle it, to laugh at it and to remember how it was perverted for evil, as men were perverted for evil, and to always remember that we (okay, our grandparents) let that happen. The shape itself has no power - evil people wielding it gave it power. People who are afraid or disgusted by it today give it power.
One of the Hindu swastikas is identical to the so-called “Nazi swastika”. All the stuff about arms left or right are retcons. There are plenty of counter-clockwise spinning swastikas in Hindu, Buddhist, Cretion and Greek art, and YES, they are still used today.
I never said that, I clearly said she should have her “White Pride” without the hate. Thank you for cherry picking your own argument out of everything I typed in this thread.
I did not mention the reversed arms, I know better. Which Hindu swastika actually matches the colors and direction of the Nazi swastika? I have never seen it and I have read into this subject long ago and more recently.
I still think you are both factually incorrect in your claim that the Nazis don’t represent an alternative system of government, and morally incorrect in thinking that censorship of Nazi views and symbols is the correct response.
My brother is a “Promise Keeper” link: http://www.promisekeepers.org/ Promise keepers for those who don’t know about them they are a cultish branch of christianity that use biblical tenents to basically enforce a white rule, male dominated idea of the christian ideal.
In other words, bible twisting hate and ignorance addicts.
His kids are hollow eyed little clones of that movement. They are home schooled (of course), and kept “away” from such evil influences as me. (I might take them to an East indian restuarant and force them to eat demon infested food).
They are not spanked or beaten, but as far as I can see, my brother might as well of raised those kids in a dark room. They have never played a video game. The only TV they have watched is church approved DVD’s.
They came to my daugfhter’s 16th birthday party. Their “Gift” was a song “Jesus gave you your life, through a man and a wife, he died deep in pain, so your soul he could gain” sung to “Happy Birthday”
My daughter was born out of wedlock; she was not raised in any particualr faith.
Those kids were/are the product of parents with a psychotic mind set. I really wonder when the “Promise Keepers” will start straping explosive belts to their little whelps to promote their sick political adgenda. They are “convinced” the world is a product of satan, and only they see the truth.
Its too late to take those kids away… they are fucked… But if I could rip every infant away from a promise keeper at birth, I would.
I accept that to some degree, but Neo-Nazis do not represent an alternative system of government. I believe that is the context I origianlly wrote it in. I understand I am not being fully logical on this, but sometimes evil is evil and Neo-Nazis are evil by choice.
She had Neo-Nazi flags in the apartment according to most of the articles. I never mentioned the color on the kids arm. I don’t think the article did either.
I was not looking for the direction, I think most of us on this board know about the origins of the symbol in ancient cultures and why the Nazis chose to use it as their own. I was looking for an example of Hindus actually using the same symbol in color & shape and the Nazis.
Would you say that it’s likely that your brother would like to rip every infant away from a *non-*promise keeper at birth, too?
Which do you think is better - to let everyone do the ripping, to let whichever group is currently in power* do the ripping, or to not let anyone do the ripping?
for the sake of argument, assume that it is not guaranteed that “your people” will always be in power.
Then the first link, en pointe and in a circle is probably the closest to what you’re looking for. Colors, I can’t help you with. The information I can find states that the Nazi colors came from the Japanese flag, inverted, and not directly from Hindu sources.
