I wasn’t sure whether I should put this in Great Debates or in the Pit. I feel quite strongly that was done here was wrong and I could easily have come up with an epithet filled diatribe against the Child and Family Services workers that would have belonged only in the Pit. Still, in order to generate some civilized discussion, I’ll calm down and start the thread here in Great Debates.
In brief, a little girl drew a swastika on her arm, went to schoool, and her teacher washed it off. Upon finding this out, the girl’s mother helped the kid redraw the swastika on her arm and sent her back to school with it. At that point, and in the absence of any other “abuse” (real, imagined, or alleged), a government agency (Child and Family Services) removed both the girl and her brother from the home.
This is a horrible development. Strictly on the basis of the mother’s belief, her kids were taken from her. Did she hit them? Starve them? Sexually abuse them? No, she projected her beliefs onto them. Vile as they may be (we really don’t know what they are), that is no different than what all parents do. They instill beliefs into their kids. Only now, in Canada, if the govenment disagrees with those beliefs, it may take your kids from you. Maybe next time they’ll take away kids from parents who think that dope smoking should be made legal. Or from parents who teach their kids it’s OK to be gay. Or whatever the unpopular belief of the day is.
What is almost as bad is the support for this action (see the comments section in the linked article). My God, what is my country turning into?
To be fair, it went a little farther than drawing a swastika. She also had Neo-Nazi paraphernalia all over her apartment, and was wearing Nazi jewelry. Also, the mother is using the “David Duke” defense: “if black people can support black pride, why can’t I support white pride by joining the Neo-Nazis?” revealing herself to be not only a piece of shit but a really stupid piece of shit.
Not that they should take away her kids just because she’s a stupid piece of shit.
Given that Holocaust denial is illegal in Canada, are there also laws against display of Nazi symbols such as exist in Germany, for example?
If there are (and I should say I find such laws crazy) then the mother has used the child in the commission of a crime, which isn’t a good thing obviously.
That’s the only legal grounds I can conceive for this action.
Well I guess I would make the argument that any mother that is bringing her kids up to be Neo-Nazis is an unfit mother.
You make a good case, ironically the one that was best known to warn people not to stand idly by when the Nazi’s came for your neighbors of different beliefs. Like this branch of Child and Family Services I find Nazism to be a genuinely unprotected belief system. It is simply a message of hate, not alternate government, belief or economic system.
I am sure in the end, the Mom will get her kids back, but I support the workers of Child and Family Services that did this.
Jim
*When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn’t a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.*
I don’t want to second-guess the Child Protection staff; usually they’re too slow to remove kids from dangerous situations, in my experience. I’d give them the benefit of the doubt and presume that they saw and learned more in the household than may appear in the article.
But IMHO the teacher should have had the parents in for a P-T conference and explained why the swastika was inappropriate in a classroom setting after scrubbing it off. The kid’s skin shouldn’t be the subject of a battle of wills between teacher and parents.
I don’t know how you can possibly make that claim. It clearly is a message of alternate government and belief. Abhorrent without a doubt, but I feel uncomfortable with government agencies determining which belief systems are protected and which aren’t. It’s the “logic” used to remove children from gay parents.
The message is one of hate, not white pride.
The originals removed any protection or pity I could muster for this crazy group.
You want white pride, fine make your silly group up but don’t dress it in the words, symbols and history of the Nazis.
There are plenty of groups that I don’t support that I also don’t object to. Be it Black Pride, the Son of Hibernia or the Knights of Columbus. None of these are about hate or wear the trapping of hate. Fuck the Nazis and their twisted Neo-Nazis wanna-bes.
Swap “perversion” for “hate”, and whee, we’ve found another way to oppress gays! Or invent a “jewish conspiracy” and swap “conspiring” for “hate”, and you can become a nazi! Double whee!
“Special cases” are the footholds of evil. The Nazis were evil, but that doesn’t make responding in kind a good idea. So get rid of the “special cases” and realize that as long as they don’t actually do anything terrible to anybody, idiot neonazi wannabes have as much right to their stupid opinions as everyone else.
Except, those substitutions don’t really fly because all the Nazis stood for was conquest and the hatred of Jews. There is no way, none, to spin that into an acceptable form of “alternative government.”
EDIT: Plus, the girl is 7. It is fucked up to send her to school with a swastika on her arm and use her as a pawn in hate-filled Nazi games and not expect repurcussions.
I don’t see how it could be legal, if this is all that happened. Don’t get me wrong…I think her child will grow up to be a hateful asshole, most likely, but there’s plenty of those around and it’s never been against the law before.
There are lots of things we dont’ agree on as a society. Offensive as it is, a swastika is not harming anyone any more than a star of David harms a muslim. Do you think muslims should be allowed to force the removal of jewish religious symbols because they think their religion is bad?
Wheres the father.?
I hate the beliefs but dragging the kids out of the house and putting them in Family Services is likely a damaging prospect too. Taking the kids will convince the mother that the state is as evil as she thinks it is.
Not so. Fascism is not merely “evil distilled”. It’s a particular political philosophy. One that I vehemently oppose, but a political philosophy nonetheless.
How would you feel if CPS removed a child from a home because her mother was a communist?
Absolutely. As long as no harm is being done to the girl, then no one should be interfering.
Not only do I agree wit begbert2, but this woman is *not *even a Nazi. This woman (stupidly, and she admits that now) drew a swastika on her daughter. She specifically denies being “a racist, a bigot or a Neo-Nazi”. I have absolutely no idea if she’s lying or not, but actions, not ideas, should be the rubric for taking away children.
In a debating sense, I have to agree with her - if her intent is White Pride, how is that demonstrably more damaging to her children than Black Pride? I don’t agree that that is the issue she’s giving awareness to, due to her stupid choice of symbols, but the question is a valid one.
In a parenting sense, I think she’s going to confuse her kids and possibly get them beat up as they get older and their peer group isn’t going to listen to hair-splitting defenses regarding the difference between pride in one’s ancestors and hating other people. But if we take away kids because they might get beat up for their parent’s beliefs or actions, again, we’re into “what about gays or pagans or Jews or Catholics or Arabs or Mexicans or…”
If it’s the swastika alone that you have a problem with, would you support a similar case involving a Hindu family?
I understand the point, but I see no reason for the KKK or the Nazis to continue. These are not religions or sexual choices or anything else that requires tolerance and protection. But rejoice, it is not my decision and we all know in the end this hateful mother will get back her kids.
Of course, it is only with a lot of luck that her kids will overcome the nastiness that she is instilling in them.
Does Black Pride drape itself in the trapping of pure and simple evil? Would a Hindi family use the clearly identifiable Nazi Swastika or a different traditional one that stands for life and love?
These are all weasel arguments. The Swastika she has up in her home is the Nazi symbol, not the ancient symbol. Let her have her White Pride by using the Queen as her symbol or a famous white Scientist a Canadian patriot or something else positive.
I actually like the fact it is illegal to display the Nazi Swastika in Germany, I wish the US and Canada would follow their lead.